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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2017-07-13

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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12:33 paramat #6125 and related #6126
12:33 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6125 -- F5 debug display: Reformat and remove some information by paramat
12:33 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6126 -- Default window size: Increase to 16:9 1024x576 by paramat
12:35 VanessaE whoa wait
12:35 VanessaE don't remove the filename
12:35 VanessaE (of the top solid)
12:35 VanessaE that's occasionally useful
12:35 VanessaE s/solid/tile/
12:36 VanessaE one thing that DOES need done however is to make the text wrap properly if the window is too narrow
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12:38 paramat wrapping will less readable if it wraps mid-parameter, and it's simpler to not do so, anyway no need to with this
12:38 VanessaE so split it between fields?
12:39 VanessaE if it doesn't wrap, it gets cut off entirely
12:39 VanessaE stats that are hidden are kinda useless :)
12:39 paramat that would be complex, and it's unnecessary
12:39 VanessaE hm.
12:39 * VanessaE shrugs
12:40 paramat well, maybe
12:40 VanessaE you could just re-arrange the line wrapping manually
12:40 paramat it would conform to screen width
12:40 VanessaE like just make the lines always a little shorter
12:40 paramat .. and therefore reduce lines
12:41 paramat manual re-arranging is what my PR does? maybe i misunderstood?
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12:56 paramat well maybe we can make it adjust to screen width in future, but i don't know how to do that so this for now
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13:42 Fixer get biome info
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13:52 paramat VanessaE while i consider keeping node top tile, how is it useful? seems not very essential, and it is not the pointed tile
13:54 paramat any more comments on #6091 ? it has approval so i might merge it much later today
13:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6091 -- Revert "[CSM] Add send_chat_message and run_server_chatcommand" by rubenwardy
14:02 paramat anyway, i'll check the PR that added top tile info to see the uses
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14:06 DS-minetest 6091 has only one approval but 8 yellow disapprovals including nerzhul
14:09 nerzhul in fact to make sending messages more efficient we should: 1. have the new chat protocol merged 2. develop the mod communication channels
14:09 nerzhul i just work on other projects these days
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14:29 paramat emoticon disapprovals are different from official approvals so cannot be compared, and some are hacker types, the server owners all approve
14:31 DS-minetest no, there are many server owners that didn't approve
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14:35 VanessaE paramat: maybe it (texture filename) doesn't have much use, but it just seems like it belongs is all.  besides, is it *really* all that heavy to display it?  and why do we care? :)
14:35 VanessaE I've used it once or twice to check what texture a node ended up with.  like a sanity check.
14:36 VanessaE imho it's okay to lose a few percent performance for the sake of debug info as long as that loss happens only when the debug info is displayed.
14:36 VanessaE (assuming we're talking a few percent, you did say the performance difference was small)
14:37 * VanessaE shrugs
14:40 paramat sorry i mean, of the server owners who added an emoticon
14:40 VanessaE as for CSM it's simple:  if it's something that can allow a client to spam the server in any way, shape, or form, it needs to be removed entirely, or disabled from the server by default.
14:40 paramat nah it's not heavy to display, as i wrote, but if it's not much use ..
14:41 paramat few percent would be a huge performance loss, i mean much much smaller :]
14:41 VanessaE hehe ok
14:41 VanessaE well think of it this way:
14:41 VanessaE what's the point in *removing* it now that it's there?
14:42 VanessaE it's a debug display, it should have as much useful info as possible.
14:42 DS-minetest +
14:42 paramat less screen clutter, a 3rd line is more intrusive
14:42 VanessaE param1 on the other hand is questionable
14:42 DS-minetest the players won't update if they know that the feature is removed
14:42 VanessaE bleh, it's debug
14:42 VanessaE you can turn it off anyway
14:42 paramat DS wut
14:42 VanessaE besides, the graphs at the bottom are far more intrusive
14:42 DS-minetest oh
14:43 VanessaE DS-minetest: CSM updates will come with a protocol bump == server owners can disallow old clients that lack the updates.
14:43 paramat sorry DS maybe you meant chat
14:43 DS-minetest yes
14:43 DS-minetest VanessaE: but the server would loose many stable version players
14:43 nerzhul VanessaE, you cannot really spam as there are spam limits server side
14:44 VanessaE DS-minetest: tough.
14:44 VanessaE they can upgrade.
14:44 VanessaE nerzhul: can the server protect against rapid node actions?
14:44 DS-minetest the spam limits have to bee stricter
14:44 VanessaE and no, the server does NOT protect well against spamming the chat
14:44 paramat *some* may not update, but only hacker types
14:45 VanessaE besides, there's just no use-case for a mod "talking" to the server's other players like that.
14:45 DS-minetest paramat: and the ones who use table
14:45 DS-minetest stable*
14:45 VanessaE it will be in stable.
14:46 DS-minetest also moderators and admins can easily kick or ban or revoke shout of spamming players
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14:46 paramat the 'spam limits' are just message rate, there are other ways to annoy with chat messages, like the hi mod
14:46 VanessaE that doesn't work in practice, DS-minetest .
14:46 VanessaE paramat: exactly.
14:47 VanessaE DS-minetest: server admins can't police servers 24/7.
14:47 DS-minetest then we need a limited amount of messages that can be sent
14:48 paramat mods and admin would rather not have the annoyance in the first place, try talking to them
14:48 VanessaE that's the domain of a server mod perhaps, but you still have to make sure the client can't automate it.
14:48 VanessaE paramat: ^  exactly.
14:48 paramat no, message limit is no solution
14:49 VanessaE there are anti-spam and anti-flood mods for IRC clients and IRC bots that are usually fairly effective, but if the opportunity exists to nip that in the bud now, then it should be so.
14:49 paramat chat can annoy within rate or total limits
14:49 VanessaE yup
14:50 DS-minetest well, actually i only know one good usecase of sending chat messages: the one which uses oredetect now
14:50 VanessaE why would that send chat messages to the server?
14:50 VanessaE "that's just plain dumb and stupid!"
14:50 DS-minetest so, telling the server that the player has oredetect but not showing it to the player
14:50 VanessaE THAT is the domain of the layer below Lua
14:51 VanessaE i.e. the client can inform the server via a normal side channel rather than in chat.
14:51 DS-minetest but using chat commands is very useful
14:52 DS-minetest VanessaE: yeah, but it tells it to all players that the player has oredetect
14:52 VanessaE yeah and that's a waste of bandwidth
14:53 VanessaE that's the sort of thing that should be handled at a much lower level (at which point the client should tell the server ALL of the client-side mods it has, if that isn't already the case)
14:53 DS-minetest it isn't but also it wouldn't help anything since the name isn't useful to know
14:54 VanessaE exactrly
14:54 VanessaE exactly*
14:54 VanessaE that's what makes it a waste of bandwidth
14:54 VanessaE it's useless information (and it's not expected to drive one's imagination either)
14:54 DS-minetest actually the new oredetect version is just an experiment
14:57 DS-minetest the only possibility to spam with chatcommands is normally with the me command (maybe also with msg)
14:58 VanessaE exactly.
14:58 DS-minetest what if there was a field in chatcommand definition if it can be used with csm?
14:59 paramat can you not cheat with that mod now?
14:59 DS-minetest oredetect is disabled
15:00 VanessaE hacker types will just work around it
15:00 VanessaE Lua's a lot easier to hack than C++
15:00 paramat VanessaE https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=53&t=17692 i think this should be removed from the forum until we have restrictions
15:00 DS-minetest and a player who uses it writes on join detecting ores is like eating yellow snow
15:01 DS-minetest VanessaE: but as long as a C++ change is needed, it's ok
15:01 VanessaE moved to "moderator talk"
15:01 VanessaE paramat: ^
15:01 VanessaE (best place I could think of that'll keep it out of normal users' view)
15:01 paramat ok thanks
15:01 paramat is there any reason why oredetect should not be removed?
15:02 VanessaE got a link to it?
15:02 DS-minetest paramat: getting the players who are evil and want to use it
15:03 paramat https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=53&t=17046
15:04 VanessaE paramat: moved.  sorry, DS-minetest.
15:04 DS-minetest ok
15:04 paramat those are the only 2 that are harmful
15:05 paramat thanks, and yes we're sorry, it's only for a few months
15:06 * DS-minetest added the evil label to github oredetect repository
15:07 paramat i think 0.5 is the point where there are enough protections to allow any CSM mod to be posted, so 6 months
15:09 DS-minetest game#1827 needs a better name :P
15:09 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1827 -- !
15:09 VanessaE wat
15:11 paramat zaoqi is chinese and has bad english
15:12 paramat but it could be better
15:13 paramat i'll add a title if one doesn't appear
15:14 DS-minetest could we please keep csm chatcommand execution and add a field in chatcommand definition if it can be used with csm
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15:54 glut32 I have a mouse bug only on MacOSX : You cannot move the camera with the mouse
15:58 glut32 (on minetest)
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