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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2017-07-15

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 paramat will merge #5533 #6091 #6126 in a few mins
00:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5533 -- Sneak: Strip down version by SmallJoker
00:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6091 -- Revert "[CSM] Add send_chat_message and run_server_chatcommand" by rubenwardy
00:05 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6126 -- Default window size: Increase to 1024x576, aspect ratio 16:9 by paramat
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00:37 paramat merging
00:41 paramat done
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00:50 garywhite So now it's 16:9?
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07:27 nerzhul reverting #bdac12761cd92960c3df83c932aa610f2322215f which was merged whereas it's controversial and agreed by pr author
07:28 nerzhul and has 1 approval
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07:59 Krock inb4   Revert "Revert "CSM: Revert "[CSM] Add send_chat_message and run_server_chatcommand"""
07:59 nerzhul inb4 ? what does that mean ?
07:59 nerzhul inception revert ? :p
08:00 nerzhul hi Krock
08:01 Krock "in before", here a sarcastic comment about reverting a revert commit
08:01 Krock hello nerzhul :)
08:01 Krock also yeah, kind of an inception
08:02 nerzhul i really need time to finish those flavour, we merge, and that's all
08:02 nerzhul can you review my PR about chat protocol rewrite?
08:02 nerzhul it's almost finished
08:02 nerzhul #5117
08:02 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5117 -- Chat protocol rewrite by nerzhul
08:02 nerzhul only CSM binding update and SSM binding updates are required now
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08:17 nerzhul Krock, why do we want to not send the packet?
08:18 Krock context please
08:20 Krock If you mean my suggested code.. it's yours, but with an additional pointer instead of two separate Send calls
08:20 nerzhul oh :p
08:20 Krock the packet will not be sent in your code too
08:20 Krock okay, we already found an issue there :)
08:21 Krock well, it doesn't matter, as "sentToAll()" ignores proto version 0 too
08:23 Krock but otherwise looks good - will test when you're done with it
08:45 nerzhul okay, i have some IRL things to do and i'm polishing #5930
08:45 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [WIP] [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul
08:46 nerzhul see you later
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11:42 nerzhul guyz, on client i think we should only have get_node working like get_node_or_nil, this doesn'th make sense to have the two functions (expecially client side)
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12:49 nerzhul #5930 is now ready for merge, i finished it
12:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul
12:50 nerzhul red-001, Krock sofar rubenwardy please look at it :)
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16:19 paramat Krock nore rubenwardy sofar if #6091 is to remain reverted you need to add your disapprovals, if you feel that way. i did wait a long time and asked for more opinions
16:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6091 -- Revert "[CSM] Add send_chat_message and run_server_chatcommand" by rubenwardy
16:20 paramat it's dubious whether a revert was justified, but a merge was fine
16:21 paramat ^ sfan5 ShadowNinja
16:21 Krock run_server_command sounds overengineered anyway. there's send_chat_message
16:21 paramat see my comment
16:22 rubenwardy send_chat_message shouldn't be in the next release, but I'm happy to wait longer if others want that
16:22 Krock only that it has 2 approvals doesn't make it mergeable
16:22 Krock the disapprovals must be solved somehow
16:22 paramat correct
16:23 paramat 1 disapproval doesn't stop a PR
16:23 paramat there needs to be more than 1. many PRs have 1 disapproval and get merged
16:24 paramat and there was no additional comments for a long time, even though i asked and waited
16:25 nerzhul flavour is ready
16:25 nerzhul just review merge and close that thing.
16:25 nerzhul remove feature != disable if server owner doesn't want
16:25 rubenwardy it's a misfeatur
16:25 paramat it needs more disapproval to revert
16:28 paramat anyway let's merge flavours first, then 6091 can be rebased if the author feels like it, by that time hopefully it will have more opinions added
16:30 nerzhul merge 6091 it with flavour PR merged has no sense
16:31 paramat well duh
16:32 paramat just because flavours is merged doesn't mean we have to keep a CSM feature
16:36 paramat rubenwardy see mark-otaris's comment, perhaps the server command part is useful and can stay? mark suggests mod channels are not enough
16:36 rubenwardy no, that's not a valid use-case IMO
16:36 paramat i'll look at flavours in a moment, thanks for that
16:36 rubenwardy the server should have authority
16:36 paramat ok
16:36 paramat obviously
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16:56 paramat all CSM functions are enabled by default?
16:59 paramat -1
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17:04 paramat even red-001 agrees with node getters disabled by default
17:06 paramat and chat
17:06 VanessaE any CSM function that involves sending something back to the server that then affects the maps or is seen by other players ought be disabled by default.
17:06 VanessaE period.
17:06 ShadowNinja paramat: It doesn't allow anything that you couldn't do anyways in C++, so I think you should just make the server-side anti-spam more effective.
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17:10 paramat ShadowNinja the 'possible in C++' argument is invalid, compliling a hacked client is different to using a CSM mod
17:11 shivajiva ^
17:12 paramat CSM makes it easy for anyone, multiplying the number of cheaters by 100-1000
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17:16 ShadowNinja paramat: Yes, it's more difficult, but still possible.  I'd prefer if the anti-spam was improved to make this ineffective.  But it's probably better to be conservative with the CSM API so I don't mind too much if it's removed.
17:19 ShadowNinja BTW, I won't be here for the meeting today.  paramat: Could you take over?  We didn't get much of anything done the last two weeks since there wasn't much participation, so the notes would be the same as last week (or you could add your own stuff).
17:21 kilbith distributing a hacked client is also easy, and easier to run than CSM hacking
17:22 nerzhul there is no function to interact with server
17:23 nerzhul chat message is a way to have pure CSM admin interfaces without channel, and it permits to learn code, by implementing some interactions with server, impossible before that
17:23 nerzhul it's one of the usecases
17:25 paramat sorry, i don't like running meetings, i would rather we have meetings when people are around
17:28 ShadowNinja paramat: 18:00Z is one of the best times, it's just that not everyone shows up.
17:28 ShadowNinja Anyone else to run the meeting?
17:32 paramat well, we can still have a meeting and run it together
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17:35 ShadowNinja Alright.
17:47 paramat we can start now, Krock nore rubenwardy sfan5 sofar #5930 what are dev's opinions about the default for this? all server owners who have given their opinion want all disabled, safe option as default makes sense to me
17:47 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul
17:48 nerzhul personnaly i think it's server owner to have responsibility to disable what he wants
17:49 Krock these are features that server owners must unlock for players in order to use
17:49 Krock like we have "privileges" instead of "restrictions"
17:50 Krock i.e. safe, forbidding all by default
17:52 paramat at least node getters and chat should be disabled, as red suggests
17:53 paramat but i think we should go with server owners wishes here
17:53 paramat since they are so concerned
18:02 Krock okay, what other PRs are there to discuss?
18:03 paramat #6125 ? but i'm biased
18:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6125 -- F5 debug display: Reformat and remove some information by paramat
18:05 Krock the 3-line debug method is the most promising of them
18:06 paramat most is just cleanup of format
18:06 paramat but param1 is removed as is top tile info, both fairly useless
18:07 paramat the PR has the 3rd line only appearing if a node is pointed at
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18:07 Krock the variable names (guitext3) could be better but that's trivial
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18:08 Krock IMO more important, to move the whole stuff below the chat console when opened
18:08 VanessaE :+1:
18:08 paramat oh, the PR is mostly to stop node info running off-screen
18:09 paramat (shown in 3rd screenshot which is current behaviour)
18:10 paramat yeah moving below chat would be good but i don't know how to yet
18:10 nore I feel that if it is disabled by default, most servers will be with disabled CSM and that will incite much more users to create hacked clients ignoring server limitations on CSM
18:11 VanessaE forbidden fruit argument?
18:11 paramat that's a ridiculous argument
18:11 paramat the default won't affect how server admin set flavours
18:12 VanessaE I can see the logic in it, but there's one thing to consider: the majority of Minetest users barely know how to install a mod, let alone hack on the C++ side of things
18:12 VanessaE I don't think it would actually lead to more "hacked" clients
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18:12 DS-minetest +1 to bellow chat console; csm disabled by default would be bad imo. as it's also bad imo that disable_anticheat is disabled by default
18:12 paramat very few can hack a client, but everyone can use a CSM mod
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18:12 red-001 disabling too much will lead to people not updating
18:12 Grandolf speaking of clients
18:13 Grandolf i just saw a sifi node where scifi isnt a mod
18:13 Grandolf *scifi
18:13 Grandolf wonder if adding on_punch to it and making it give u 1000 diamonds would be possible
18:13 Grandolf ^not really wondering
18:14 nore what I'm saying is that many regular players will want to use client-enhancing features that do not affect the server; but that for that they will need to circumvent the limitation
18:14 nore and if a lot of players do that, the risk that one of these clients gets out is greater
18:14 Krock minetest.override_item("blah:bar", { on_punch = function(foo, bar, covfefe) end }
18:14 VanessaE nore: that's why my preference is only to disable by default that which can affect the server.
18:14 nerzhul Krock, okay then, just set it to UINT64_MAX
18:14 VanessaE Krock: covfefe is now a metasyn variable? :)
18:15 Krock yes.
18:15 VanessaE heh
18:15 Krock foo bar baz covfefe
18:15 nerzhul merging trivial fix #6138
18:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6138 -- Camera: Fix wieldmesh glitch after teleporting by kilbith
18:15 nore <red-001> disabling too much will lead to people not updating <-- very true
18:15 paramat if the default did result in most servers disabling CSM then 1000 times more cheatere will be using CSM mods unrestricted, that's a far larger danger
18:16 paramat e i mean the opposite
18:16 paramat *er
18:16 nore also, there will probably be hacked clients that will be distributed anyway, so *shrug*
18:16 Krock they will update as soon we have attracting new features
18:16 nerzhul i can disable chat + enable node limit
18:16 nerzhul nore hacked clients always can do this
18:16 nore it's a 1-line patch
18:16 red-001 see `minehacker` for that one
18:17 red-001 they even had the nerve to charge for it
18:17 Krock nore, heh. For years it's already possible to change a single line to "unlock" all privileges locally
18:17 paramat *if it is enabled by default ..
18:17 nore Krock: yep, we still don't have enough server-side checking :(
18:17 red-001 when thankfully there hasn't been a good cheating client yet
18:18 nerzhul red-001, agreed because anticheat with opensource is zero
18:18 Krock sadly I lost my ore digging code when switching to linux.. only got this newer area filler code left
18:18 Krock quite useless in the daily minetest cheating :P
18:18 paramat the players can ask the server owner to enable the CSM functions if they have not already
18:18 red-001 `minehacker` for all the fuss it caused on the forums was a subpar product
18:19 nore Krock: I think I still have ore digging code, but it is so old it needs a lot of rebasing :p
18:19 nerzhul red-001, can you update it please ?
18:19 nerzhul #6066
18:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6066 -- Move the code for taking and saving a screenshot to `RenderingEngine` by red-001
18:19 red-001 will do tomorrow
18:19 paramat only 4 function types would be disabled by default, the majority have no restrictions
18:19 nerzhul nice
18:19 Grandolf how does a server diable csm's? is there an option?
18:20 nerzhul #5793 & #5797 should be reviewed to
18:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5793 -- [CSM] Add callback on open inventory by Dumbeldor
18:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5797 -- [CSM] Add function to set the FOV of the local player by bigfoot547
18:20 nerzhul server should not have possibility to disable CSM but limit some API
18:20 nerzhul CSM is the JS of minetest
18:20 nerzhul both you have a contract but none can alter the whole state of the other
18:21 VanessaE um, no.  CSM is more like browser add-ons/extensions
18:21 kaeza it's even better since it's not JS
18:21 nerzhul VanessaE, browser addons are more intrusive than websites
18:21 Grandolf cant server see ur settings?
18:21 nerzhul no because it's intrusive
18:21 Grandolf and block people with csm's enabled?
18:21 VanessaE nerzhul: you can't compare it to JS - the server does not send any code to the client.
18:21 nerzhul VanessaE, atm
18:21 VanessaE indeed.
18:22 nerzhul i changed default flavour to 3 (limit node range + disable chat) on #5930
18:22 VanessaE until it does, it can't be compared to JS.  it can best be compared to addons/extensions
18:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul
18:22 nerzhul i don't see any security issue to block itemdefs and nodedefs by default
18:22 nerzhul browsers extensions are enabled by users to alter websites :p
18:22 paramat ok good enough for me
18:22 VanessaE nerzhul: exactly my point.
18:23 VanessaE and just as a browser and server should never allow things to be sent to the server that can disrupt it, so should Minetest restrict the power of CSM.
18:23 paramat thanks
18:24 nerzhul chat messages are AJAX calls, it's allowed in a browser :)
18:25 VanessaE you know what I mean...
18:25 red-001 is web browser metaphor is kinda breaking down isn't it?
18:26 VanessaE it only breaks down if you over-analyze it :P
18:26 nerzhul red-001, okay for 5930 ?
18:26 nerzhul nore, ShadowNinja ?
18:26 nerzhul sofar, ?
18:26 red-001 #5930
18:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5930 -- [CSM] Add flavour limits controlled by server by nerzhul
18:27 paramat meeting notes are here https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/g50S6G3Fou
18:27 nerzhul this close the controversy and we can really do other things :p
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18:28 red-001 you should explain how a byteflag works or link to something that does
18:28 red-001 it's not something you can expect server owners to already know
18:29 Krock paramat, wasn't there a newer one somewhere?
18:29 paramat yeah possibly
18:29 paramat that one is old, but thought it was one that got updated
18:30 paramat not much has happened in meetings for weeks though
18:35 red-001 oh nvm looks like you did explain it
18:35 DS-minetest imo the CHAT_MESSAGES: 2 (disable send_chat_message call client-side) flag of 5930 should be disabled by default, if server owners are annoyed by spamming or colored chat, they will disable it
18:35 paramat nice priorities
18:36 red-001 server owner that don't like coloured chat should enable colour filtering
18:36 red-001 it's literal a setting on the server
18:36 VanessaE bbl
18:36 DS-minetest but if they don't care, they are mostly too lazy to deactivate it
18:37 paramat so many people suggesting everything is set up in favour of troublemakers
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18:46 Grandolf https://github.com/Grandolf/cheater/tree/master
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18:52 paramat first offtopic, then 'ur', now that, not sure grandolf should be allowed in this channel
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18:53 paramat we can give you a chance if you behave
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18:54 Krock no kindergarten here. first warn, then kick. simple.
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19:05 paramat nerzhul sorry, my 'ok for me' wasn't a +1
19:05 paramat i'm not sure i am qualified to review the code
19:05 paramat but i don't oppose
19:06 paramat can we have a protocol bump with this?
19:07 paramat to allow those who want to enforce restrictions
19:08 paramat what do others think about a bump?
19:18 red-001 paramat?
19:19 red-001 he didn't say anything
19:19 red-001 oh I just have them ignored by ip
19:20 paramat :]
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21:09 nerzhul his mod is not cheat, it's a server side mod, i do'nt see any hole lol
21:18 Calinou this guy has been making a lot of confusing/nonsense issues lately: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6132
21:18 Calinou :|
21:19 Calinou https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issu​es?utf8=%E2%9C%93&amp;q=author%3Azaoqi%20
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21:44 red-001 just ban them
21:45 red-001 or not dunno
21:46 bigfoot547 red-001, ban who?
21:47 paramat zaoqi is chinese, but could make more effort to use google translate or something
21:47 red-001 nvm I though the two users where the same person
21:47 red-001 I though Calinou was referring to the same person as nerzhul
21:56 rubenwardy #6136
21:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6136 -- TCP
21:57 bigfoot547 lol
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