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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2017-07-26

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Time Nick Message
00:07 KaadmY What's the tangent vertex buffer for?
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00:14 rubenwardy KaadmY, it was added by RBA to do things like water shaders etc
00:15 KaadmY rubenwardy: I'm studying it, it looks like it's for normalmapping
00:15 KaadmY Or at least that's the only use for it
00:16 KaadmY Trying to see if I can salvage the binormal and tangent for an artificial light factor
00:16 rubenwardy ah cool
00:17 rubenwardy I know that RBA did something like adding tangents which would be needed by water shaders later on
00:17 KaadmY Having water reflect the sky would be really neat :D
00:17 KaadmY (You'd need to render a cubemap though)
00:18 rubenwardy there's also raytraced reflections
00:18 KaadmY Those are a lot more expensive
00:19 rubenwardy yeah, I guessed
00:19 rubenwardy they sound it
00:19 KaadmY And you can't do raytracing in a shader without knowing the entire geometry
00:19 KaadmY The common way to do water reflection is to just render a cubemap and project it no
00:19 KaadmY on*
00:19 KaadmY Having refraction alone would be really nice
00:35 lisac hey KaadmY your PR doesn't add actual shadows does it?
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00:36 KaadmY lisac: no it doesn't
00:37 KaadmY (Although it would be nice if realtime shadows magically just *worked* without anyone intervening :P)
00:38 lisac :(
00:38 lisac would it be possible to just flip the model and draw it on the surface under it, but dark?
00:39 KaadmY That's hacky, and that's called reflections :P
00:39 KaadmY 1. It's hacky.
00:39 KaadmY 2. It's hacky.
00:39 KaadmY 3. It's still hacky no matter how many times you ask
00:39 KaadmY ...
00:39 KaadmY 4. Seriously.. Answer's not gonna change :P
00:40 lisac :P
00:40 lisac just wondering
00:40 lisac i've got no idea about shaders
00:40 KaadmY Also that would be completely wrong shadows
00:40 lisac beyond loading them from copy-pasted GL code
00:40 lisac how do others do it?
00:40 KaadmY With shadowmaps
00:41 KaadmY Which I don't want to do yet since Minetest has a rendering wrapper, on top of Irrlicht's
00:41 KaadmY And both are hard to add shadowmaps
00:43 * lisac reads up on shadow mapping
00:43 lisac "This concept was introduced by Lance Williams in 1978" :O that is old
00:43 lisac did they even have GPUs then?
00:43 KaadmY Not really   :D
00:43 lisac lol what was the use of that creatively named book then?
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00:44 KaadmY :shrug:
00:44 lisac :P
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00:48 lisac alright this whole wiki page sounds like gibberish
00:48 lisac it's 2:48
00:48 lisac I should go sleep
00:48 lisac cya all tomorrow
01:08 KaadmY Gaaaaah
01:09 KaadmY It seems that Irrlicht automatically generates tangent and binormal vectors, so I can't mess with them manually...
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01:39 paramat will merge #6167 and #6173 in a moment
01:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6167 -- Mgv7: Add 'mount_zero_level' parameter by paramat
01:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6173 -- Create_schematic documentation: Update for per-node force-place by paramat
01:44 paramat merging
01:47 paramat done
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05:23 nerzhul hello, merging #6169 in ~10 mins
05:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6169 -- VoxelManip cleanups (const ref, const move) + function removal by nerzhul
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05:33 KaadmY LOL
05:33 KaadmY If you search for "FindVorbis.cmake", the first result is the one in the Minetest repository: https://encrypted.google.com/s​earch?&q=FindVorbis.cmake
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05:46 Hijiri KaadmY: are you sure it's not because of your browsing / search history
05:46 Hijiri it doesn't show up when I use startpage, which uses anonymized google results
05:47 KaadmY Hijiri: lemme check with incognito, I don't think so though
05:47 KaadmY It showed up as #2 in DuckDuckGo also
05:47 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2 -- Burned wood
05:47 KaadmY First result in an incognito window also
05:47 KaadmY Second result in DDG
05:47 Hijiri minetest doesn't show up for me in DDG
05:48 Hijiri oh it does
05:48 Hijiri second result
05:48 Hijiri I guess startpage just has different results for some reason
05:48 KaadmY (Startpage kinda sucks for search TBH)
05:54 KaadmY Would it be possible to see mods having a way to change the velocity of players?
05:54 KaadmY player:set_velocity() (or something like that) doesn't work on player objects
06:08 Hijiri it's been discussed a few times around different places
06:09 Hijiri main substantial argument against it imo is that it would be weird for knockback because the server has outdated current player velocity info, so it would be better to have add_velocity
06:09 Hijiri but you could make a hacky set_velocity using add_velocity anyway so I think you might as well have both
06:09 Hijiri but if the engine was going to have only one I think it should be add_velocity, which is more useful
06:10 nerzhul we have an opened pr by Dumbeldor for a real knockback feature but it's not finished yet
06:10 nerzhul #5679
06:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5679 -- Knockback by Dumbeldor
06:10 Hijiri I thought it implemented knockback in some convoluted way
06:10 Hijiri instead of just applying an impulse
06:10 nerzhul lol it's exactly that
06:10 Hijiri oh
06:10 nerzhul vector + duration
06:11 Hijiri uh
06:11 Hijiri that's not just applying an impulse
06:11 nerzhul if you apply velocity without a maximum duration you will continue infinitely
06:11 Hijiri player should just get an instantaneous velocity change and let gravity do the rest
06:11 nerzhul it doesn't work like that
06:12 Hijiri I don't see why it needs to be complicated with timed pushing and things
06:12 Hijiri nerzhul: why not
06:12 nerzhul because velocity should be reset
06:12 nerzhul it's an attribute
06:12 Hijiri what do you mean by reset velocity
06:12 Hijiri set it to 0?
06:12 nerzhul yes
06:12 Hijiri when?
06:13 Hijiri I don't see why it should be reset at any point of knockback
06:13 nerzhul A ---> B + gravity means: A vector distance B, and just after a short amount of time, reset velocity to make player use gravity and stop moving due to velocity
06:13 nerzhul because velocity doesn't decrease over time
06:13 Hijiri why is that better than just modifying the velocity once and have gravity apply the whole time
06:13 KaadmY Hijiri: for example right now if you jump while getting in a bed, you'll fly up infinitely
06:14 KaadmY That is, until you rejoin since velocity is reset
06:14 nerzhul once mean you don't understand what is a runtime loop
06:14 nerzhul KaadmY, good example
06:14 KaadmY In Pixture, I just save state on where the player was, then every 2 seconds in globalstep, I put them back in the bed
06:14 Hijiri nerzhul: isn't the loop already applying gravity?
06:14 KaadmY It's really hacky but it's all I can do
06:15 nerzhul Hijiri, no if velocity is stronger than gravity
06:15 Hijiri gravity is an acceleration though
06:15 Hijiri how can there be a "stronger"
06:15 Hijiri the player will have to fall eventually
06:15 nerzhul you don't understand the event loop
06:15 nerzhul velocity is acceleration on a model with direction
06:16 Hijiri so it's not really velocity?
06:16 Hijiri maybe the player movement model should be changed then
06:16 KaadmY Ummm...
06:16 Hijiri by model I don't mean that model
06:17 KaadmY Every frame:
06:17 KaadmY velocity = velocity + (acceleration) * delta
06:17 KaadmY position = position + (velocity * delta)
06:18 Hijiri that doesn't sound like what nerzhul said
06:18 Hijiri it looks like something that matches what I said
06:18 nerzhul it is but badly explained
06:18 Hijiri I think "velocity is acceleration with direction" is just wrong, not badly explained
06:18 nerzhul if you never reset velocity you will move infitinitely
06:19 Hijiri but the movement step already dampens player velocity doesn't it?
06:19 nerzhul no
06:19 Hijiri then how does it slow down the player gradually when they stop moving forward
06:19 nerzhul it is not gradual
06:20 Hijiri yes it is
06:20 nerzhul key is pressed => velocity, key is unpressed => reset
06:20 nerzhul acceleration maybe changed but not velocity
06:20 KaadmY Hijiri: velocity is dampened
06:20 Hijiri nerzhul: I thought you said that velocity needed to be reset? isn't that changing?
06:21 nerzhul in a knockback feature we have 2 things to manage: 1: velocity + kill velocity after a short amount of time to prevent infinite movement, second we manage a stun timer to drop movement key events during the knockback
06:21 Hijiri velocity isn't reset when a key is unpressed, the velocity just is pulled toward zero (not instantaneously) when no keys are pressed
06:22 Hijiri there's no need to kill velocity because velocity already gets dampened
06:24 Hijiri KaadmY: do you know what file player movement is in
06:24 Hijiri nevermind, it's in src/localplayer.cpp
06:24 KaadmY https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/blob/fafa51202c3bd6e46a44eacbc7​f42ef697835945/src/localplayer.cpp
06:24 KaadmY Hijiri: ^ you already found it though
06:28 Hijiri nerzhul: this is the code used in player movement to change the player's velocity according to controls: https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/blob/fafa51202c3bd6e46a44eacbc7f42e​f697835945/src/localplayer.cpp#L696
06:29 Hijiri It doesn't set velocity immediately. It nudges the player's current speed toward the target speed (which is an input to the function)
06:29 Hijiri So knockback can just set the current speed directly instead of doing what player controls do
06:30 Hijiri And then accelerateHorizontal and accelerateVertical will ensure that the player speed goes back to whatever they control it towards
06:30 nerzhul yeah it's used like this
06:30 nerzhul https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5679/​files#diff-efb51cde4bb3c805a95dc31b2b1781d0R796
06:30 nerzhul the problem is the return back it seems
06:33 Hijiri the problem is that it is calling this every frame
06:33 Hijiri it wouldn't have this problem if it just set the velocity once
06:33 KaadmY Why not just allow servers to AT LEAST set velocity, and allow damping still
06:33 nerzhul knockback should not be like that because prediction is important
06:33 nerzhul it's why the knockback PR is important
06:34 nerzhul we predict knockbacked movement
06:34 Hijiri prediction of what
06:34 KaadmY Not just knockback, but allow setting the player's velocity in general
06:34 nerzhul else you have a huge movement lag
06:34 Hijiri I think movement lag is acceptable
06:34 nerzhul no
06:34 KaadmY Some examples would be: beds, TNT cannons
06:34 nerzhul it's not acceptable
06:34 nerzhul i tested it it's not acceptable
06:34 Hijiri you can't make knockback prediction better
06:34 Hijiri the badness is when it starts
06:34 nerzhul lol just test the PR
06:35 Hijiri are you saying the PR is not acceptable or something else
06:35 nerzhul no the badness is all the movement
06:35 Hijiri because I don't agree with how the PR dose it
06:35 Hijiri does*
06:35 nerzhul you don't agree because you want simple shit which lags :p
06:35 Hijiri I want something that is knockback
06:35 KaadmY I like how all idTech games have server-side movement and client prediction, and they feel butter smooth
06:35 nerzhul here we have knockback + prediction of movement, it's smooth for all
06:35 nerzhul the knockback PR block movement sending to server
06:35 Hijiri it's not predicting knockback because it's not knockback
06:35 nerzhul all clients seing the knockback run the "animation"
06:36 KaadmY Plus having server side movement means you can't cheat
06:36 Hijiri it's predicting some janky other thingt
06:36 nerzhul did you looked at the video ?
06:36 Hijiri I just read sfan5's description, I'll watch the video
06:36 Hijiri I think it looks bad, just not as bad as I imagined
06:37 nerzhul the PR is enhanceable i agree, but the general code is here
06:37 Hijiri But I don't see why that is more well predicted than just changing velocity
06:37 nerzhul now it's just formula correction
06:37 Hijiri oh, does this simulate movement on remote players?
06:37 nerzhul exact
06:37 Hijiri but there's no prediction for any other movement
06:37 Hijiri of players
06:37 nerzhul for input movements it's normal
06:37 nerzhul here it's a controlled movement
06:38 nerzhul it's a sort of contract between clients
06:38 nerzhul also it applies to every CAO not only players
06:38 nerzhul you knockback a SAO (player or not) a knockback order is sent to all clients seing this SAO
06:38 nerzhul if it's you, input are blocked during knockback, movement packet sending too
06:39 nerzhul and everybody move its CAO
06:39 nerzhul it's not just sending a velocity without nothing, you should block inputs, else the movement packets make it crazy
06:39 nerzhul and this permits to have no lag, because everybody receive the order at the same moment
06:40 Hijiri It won't really scale up to bigger knockback pushes though
06:40 Hijiri it will look worse the bigger the push
06:40 nerzhul then maybe the formula or implementation of the movement client side is not perfect, but the server part and movement block is correct
06:40 nerzhul why ?
06:40 nerzhul it just work well
06:40 nerzhul the movement is identical for all clients
06:41 Hijiri I don't mean it won't be predicted fine
06:41 Hijiri I mean that it will look bad
06:41 Hijiri It won't feel like knockback
06:41 Hijiri let's say you want to make a player cannon, so you push with a really big force
06:41 nerzhul look at the video
06:41 Hijiri then the player will float up diagonally for 100 nodes then fall
06:41 Hijiri I did look at the video
06:41 Hijiri I didn't see any knockbacks
06:42 Hijiri big*
06:42 nerzhul then it's just fixing the movement on client side
06:42 Hijiri sorry
06:42 Hijiri I didn't see any big knockbacks
06:42 nerzhul take the PR, send a bigger order and see
06:42 Hijiri nerzhul: fixing how? doesn't it just send the player up diagonally?
06:43 nerzhul yeah it's the case, and as you said there is gravity, but i cannot remember if it's applied during this phase
06:46 nerzhul if you find a better movement implementation client side i'm fine, but you must have prediction like this PR, input blocking
06:47 nerzhul this PR seems stale, maybe someone can take it and fix the remaining points and we merge
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12:29 proller__ nerzhul, not all freminer optimizations is just schange one container type to another ;)
12:30 nerzhul i know, but it makes slight difference atm :p it's the first step heh
12:30 nerzhul i have finished my client optimizations, with the last PR merged we switched from 65% 35% load to 50% 50% between minetest and irrlicht
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17:02 ThomasMonroe well i have to go for today
17:06 paramat !
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17:08 paramat ~tell ThomasMonroe please don't post unnecessary goodbyes in this channel, you haven't been in a conversation here today and are not ending a conversation, please keep it to the other channels
17:08 ShadowBot paramat: O.K.
17:13 paramat ~tell ThomasMonroe i have asked before, when you did this twice in a day, next time: channel ban
17:13 ShadowBot paramat: O.K.
17:27 paramat game#1848 is tested, can anyone +1?
17:27 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1848 -- reexport player model by DS-Minetest
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17:38 nerzhul hi, merging #6171 in ~1 hour
17:38 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6171 -- TileLayer: use shared_ptr for FrameSpec vector by nerzhul
17:40 Krock btw, the black model is a known thing. even dropped items turn black when their centre position is inside a solid node
17:41 Krock will test it now
17:41 KaadmY It'd be nice to have lighting interpolate over a second or so
17:42 KaadmY Even if it doesn't fix the issue, it'd make lighting look more consistent
17:42 KaadmY Right now players have lighting depending on their node position's lighting, which isn't smoothed
17:42 KaadmY So the lighting jumps in steps
17:46 Krock why not simply use ^[colorize for this?
17:46 Krock oops, wrong channel
18:00 Krock merging game#1848 in 5 minutes
18:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1848 -- reexport player model by DS-Minetest
18:02 paramat good
18:03 paramat no the black player model is a new thing caused by the offset removal, i'll make a bugfix PR
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18:11 Krock paramat, where's the consistency with #1853 ? Players might want to use the minimap - if forbid something, then the radar
18:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1853 -- Add name of node 'pointed at' to debug by Zeno-
18:11 Krock game #1853
18:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1853 -- Add name of node 'pointed at' to debug by Zeno-
18:11 Krock game#1853 okay, now I've got it finally right :P
18:11 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1853 -- Minimap: Disable by default in survival mode by paramat
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18:22 rubenwardy paramat: game#1849
18:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1849 -- Separate player code into new mod by rubenwardy
18:23 paramat ok
18:23 rubenwardy there was no API documentation before
18:23 rubenwardy I've added a list of function
18:23 rubenwardy +s
18:23 paramat do we have a separate HUD flag for radar?
18:23 rubenwardy I'm now going to write some more docs
18:23 rubenwardy I believe so
18:24 rubenwardy huh
18:24 rubenwardy apparently not
18:24 paramat 'players might want to use the minimap' is not an argument, of course they do, but the radar function at least should be earnt
18:24 Krock paramat, I thought we had but no..
18:25 paramat ah could add it
18:25 paramat normal minimap allows seeing things hidden behind obstacles, but isn't quite as cheaty as radar
18:27 rubenwardy I think that the minimap flag should be set at the same time and place as the other default flags, in players.lua or players/init.lua after my PR
18:27 paramat ok i was uncertain of the right place
18:28 paramat will wait and do that
18:33 paramat ok looks like we need a radar HUD flag, anyone good at that code?
18:35 Fixer nerzhul: shared_ptr is that optimisation commit?
18:38 paramat anyway i'll now make the fix for dark player model
18:39 KaadmY Well the server could have an option to force enable the minimap
18:39 KaadmY Right now even it players earn it, most players won't know how to enable it
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19:02 paramat #6175
19:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6175 -- GenericCAO: Fix dark model below y = 0 by paramat
19:06 paramat players know how to enable it, it's listed in control keys. server 'enabling' mnimap doesn't make it visible, a player still has to press F9 to see it
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19:26 nerzhul paramat, exact, except if he had a CSM mod to do it
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20:29 paramat rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest_​game/pull/1849#issuecomment-318172895
20:49 nerzhul guyz i found a very very nice optimization to reduce generated blocks loading after decompression
20:49 nerzhul on my test server without optimization 15% CPU is spent in one function which correct block not ids
20:49 bigfoot547 "guyz" U being cool, nerzhul? :P
20:50 nerzhul after optimization only 1% CPU time is spent here
20:50 nerzhul it's because i'm happy :p
20:50 bigfoot547 Cool!
20:50 bigfoot547 pr?
20:50 nerzhul yeah
20:51 nerzhul i need to test on a release build to see if there is a noticeable difference, but compiler cannot save us here :p
20:51 KaadmY I don't think it'll be trivial, but I'd LOVE to see near instant meshgen
20:51 KaadmY And/or mapgen
20:51 nerzhul i don't found any solution to optimize mapgen
20:51 nerzhul i looked at the code it's nearly optimized in the current algorithm
20:51 KaadmY Mapgen time is limited by noise algorithms basically
20:52 KaadmY Which can't be improved much
20:54 CalebDavis i got the dev right before the colisionbox redo but my inventory items wont spin why?
20:56 nerzhul bigfoot547, #6176
20:56 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6176 -- Massive performance improvement on correctBlockNodeIds by nerzhul
20:56 CalebDavis i have the setting for inventory animations set to true
20:57 nerzhul look at callgrind output
20:57 nerzhul it's crazy
20:57 nerzhul MapBlock::deSerialize : 16% CPU usage, after 0.53%
20:57 nerzhul :p
20:59 paramat excellent, thanks
20:59 nerzhul on generated maps, the load from DB will be slightly improved, now we need to change comprssion algorithm and it will be just, crazy heh
21:00 paramat 'near instant meshgen and mapgen' that's not really realistic
21:00 nerzhul agreed
21:01 CalebDavis paramat do you have any ideas on why my inventory items arent rotating
21:01 paramat CalebDavis no idea why, maybe open an issue?
21:01 CalebDavis i think it might just be me idk
21:02 CalebDavis ill try the latest dev
21:07 nerzhul i'm pushing removal of Map::getDayNightDiff(v3s16 blockpos) which is unused since ages
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21:18 paramat ok
21:19 elinor paramat: Regarding #1456, does the maxlevel for the axe mese really need to remain higher than the maxlevel for the diamond axe?
21:19 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1456 -- Faces shading fixes by RealBadAngel
21:20 paramat game#1456
21:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1456 -- Diamond axe breaks earlier than mese axe
21:20 VanessaE imho mese ought to always be the most powerful of the default tools
21:20 paramat maxlevel seems important to define what it can chop?
21:20 VanessaE (since it's unique to minetest and always used to be)
21:21 paramat i'm not sure but diamond may actually be the most powerful now
21:21 VanessaE imho that ought to change then
21:21 elinor Yes, but I would expect a diamond axe to be able to chop more things than a mese axe.
21:22 elinor All the diamond and mese tools have maxlevel=3.
21:23 elinor Except the axe, so to make it consistent the diamond axe should have maxlevel=3. Otherwise the mese axe can chop more things than the diamond axe—which I don't think applies to anything in Minetest Game right now, but theoretically a mod could register a tree node with a higher level.
21:23 paramat oh
21:23 paramat ok good point
21:24 elinor So I would change the maxlevel for the diamond axe to 3, then adjust the tool capabilities so that the dig params make sense.
21:24 paramat i wasn't aware of that
21:25 elinor VanessaE: Maybe it should, but mese should at least be rarer than diamond if that was to become the case.
21:25 VanessaE perhaps
21:26 paramat well i have changes for ore depths coming
21:26 paramat making mese ore as deep as diamond
21:27 paramat elinor want to make a PR for diamond axe?
21:27 * elinor nods
21:28 paramat generally it seems mese and diamond are roughly equal in MTG, which seems ok to me
21:30 elinor They aren't, diamond tools always dig faster and can always be used more times.
21:33 VanessaE either way, mese should be the most powerful. it's just the right way to do it :)
21:33 VanessaE diamonds being rarer makes them useful as currency anyway
21:40 paramat rubenwardy sfan5 any thoughts on #1850 ? seems a possible close
21:40 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1850 -- Add gettext to Travis build by ShadowNinja
21:40 nerzhul hop a 2nd commit on 6167 which reduce mapblock save memory usage (& cpu cost when mapblocks are dup in memory in some areas)
21:42 paramat ok so a consistent PR that makes diamond axe more capable than mese axe is fine
21:42 paramat game#1850
21:42 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1850 -- rename junglewood to rosewood by DS-Minetest
21:42 nerzhul rosewood ? lol
21:44 VanessaE wat
21:45 VanessaE nfw
21:45 Taoki joined #minetest-dev
21:46 paramat it's likely to be closed :]
21:46 VanessaE good. :)
21:47 Raven262 I found a minor error in mtg, clay brick texture is 16x17 instead of 16x16.
21:47 Raven262 Is this intended?
21:48 KaadmY Awwwwwwwwww why
21:48 KaadmY Probably needed an odd pixel size
21:48 VanessaE doubt it
21:49 Fixer joined #minetest-dev
21:49 Raven262 It does affect the brick's display in the inventory.
21:49 Raven262 Causes it to appear lower
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22:14 nerzhul i push a trivial removal on a unused variable
22:15 paramat Raven262 not intended, could you open an issue or make a PR?
22:15 Raven262 I'll do an issue
22:16 Raven262 I'll also check if there are other texture in default mod that have this error
22:20 Raven262 Okay, brick is the only one.
22:22 Raven262 https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1855
22:22 Raven262 there you have it.
22:22 nerzhul i push a second commit un perlinMap3D noise call, replace a loop with a memset
22:38 paramat game#1851 is ready, nice feature
22:38 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1851 -- Make underwater torches drop by ForbiddenJ
22:43 KaadmY paramat: isn't that like a 1 line change...
22:44 paramat what is?
22:44 KaadmY Making torches drop when underwater
22:45 KaadmY floodable = true
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22:47 twoelk joined #minetest-dev
22:56 paramat nope
22:56 paramat floodable removes a node
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