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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2017-08-11

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Time Nick Message
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03:05 Hijiri Is 0.5 going to clean out all the code for legacy protocol support
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07:50 nerzhul Hello, i'm pushing a 3 loops conversion to C++11 range based for loop in ~ 5 mins
07:53 nerzhul 7 loops sorry :)
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09:32 Calinou rubenwardy: it's always funny to open an open source codebase with a JetBrains IDE
09:32 Calinou the number of mistakes it finds, sometimes…
09:33 rubenwardy My biggest project is a c++ game of 9500 lines
09:34 rubenwardy There are a lot of warnings, most of them are about nullptr
09:34 rubenwardy (calinou)
09:34 rubenwardy Do you know if it's possible to alias `null` to `nullptr`
09:35 rubenwardy I'll try a preprocessor
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09:37 Calinou I don't know
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10:27 rubenwardy My suggestions for tomorrow's meeting:https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy​/cd5e5528ec60c80270a85b9252b215a2
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18:22 rubenwardy o/
18:22 rubenwardy oops, wrong channel
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18:47 Noxarivis[m] Whats my irc Nick?
18:51 shalmezad "[14:47]  <Noxarivis[m]> Whats my irc Nick?"
18:54 rubenwardy Noxarivis[m], -> #minetest
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19:20 Wuzzy Hi folks. Slippery nodes are waiting to be reviewed: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/6237
19:20 Wuzzy Again
19:34 sofar Wuzzy: thanks for rebasing, did anything change code wise?
19:35 Wuzzy of course after 2 years ... xD
19:36 Wuzzy it was not a rebase, i simply took the original code of Zeg9 and tried it to re-integrate it to current code base
19:37 sofar I suppose it needs some testing
19:37 sofar Fixer may be up for that :)
19:37 Wuzzy Yes
19:37 Wuzzy I did only the "happy case" testing
19:37 sofar can you link a patch to e.g. minetest_game to make the ice block slippery?
19:38 sofar I suppose it's easy enough to manually do this of course
19:38 Wuzzy you can read my mind
19:38 sofar that would probably be a horrible experience
19:38 sofar :)
19:39 Wuzzy i heard some people want slippery to be more flexible. currently its binary
19:39 Wuzzy i.e. either slippery or not slippery at all
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19:41 Wuzzy this PR only works for players and item entities but ignores everything else
19:41 rubenwardy Wuzzy, as long as the API is approximately forwards compatible, it's fine to start with partially features imo
19:41 Wuzzy so e.g. mobs are on their own
19:41 sofar that's probably fine, since most mobs are non-phyisical anyway
19:41 Wuzzy i also think having binary slipperyness is a good start
19:42 Wuzzy and i wouldn't consider it an "incomplete" feature.
19:42 Wuzzy more like "improvable"/"extendable"
19:43 rubenwardy that's what I meant. It reaches a MVP
19:45 sofar hmmm, I don't see any effect yet
19:46 sofar I didn't misspell it either
19:46 sofar and inspector shows it
19:47 sofar Wuzzy: is it really subtle?
19:48 Wuzzy not really
19:48 Wuzzy use short taps
19:49 sofar I can't see a difference, somehow
19:49 Wuzzy you should slide 0.5 - 1.0 node lenghts
19:50 Wuzzy when u stop at full walking speed
19:50 sofar nope
19:50 Wuzzy wtf?!
19:51 sofar "slippery = 1" is in groups
19:51 Wuzzy u sure you pulled and applied the commit?
19:51 Wuzzy otherwise i have no explanation
19:51 sofar ah, that would be the problem
19:51 Wuzzy lol
19:54 sofar ok, looks good in game now
19:56 sofar dammit, wrong account again
19:57 sofar I need to ban my second account from minetest
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20:03 Wuzzy :-)
20:04 Wuzzy oh. did someone remove param1 from debug screen? :-( whyyyy
20:04 sofar inspector mod shows it
20:05 Wuzzy pfffffffffffff
20:05 Wuzzy also texture name is gone
20:05 sfan5 was that part of paramats changes?
20:05 sfan5 or are those not merged yet?
20:05 Wuzzy i see debug screen has now 3 lines
20:05 sofar I just noticed that too
20:05 Wuzzy so "saving space" is definitely not an excuse now
20:05 sofar well the param1 thing
20:06 Wuzzy it would be useful to know, so why hide it?
20:06 sofar I don't care much, most of my debugging I use the inspector mod for that anyway
20:06 Wuzzy meh.
20:06 Wuzzy well i want a solid core i dont want to be forced to use a mod for everything
20:07 Wuzzy and debug screen is pretty essential, i think
20:07 Wuzzy i have added param1 to debug screen btw
20:07 sofar I'd argue that in-game builtin debug stuff shouldn't reveal too much data that may actually be valuable to players
20:07 Wuzzy param1 is only light afaik
20:07 Wuzzy and i agree with you for coords and yaw
20:08 sofar yup
20:08 Krock huh? how does one need param1/2 and the texture name in the debug info? it can be done with a Lua item if needed
20:08 Wuzzy i have posted a different issue on this
20:08 Wuzzy omg plz dont force us to use mods for everything :(
20:08 Krock ong plz dont force us to implement all into C++ :(
20:08 sofar well if it's not a mod it's really hard to hide it from players
20:08 Wuzzy i think MT should provide a solid core
20:09 Wuzzy param1/param2 is very usefu and important for mod development
20:09 sofar I would think the entire debug screen could go to a mod
20:09 sofar but I am known to have alterior motives that include annoying wuzzy :)
20:09 Wuzzy Krock: debug screen in c++ is not really an issue
20:09 Wuzzy also, stop the C++ hate! xD
20:09 Krock you can't get param1/2 from a not pointable node either
20:10 Krock (using the debug info)
20:10 Wuzzy and thats the reason to ban param1 but not param2? nonsense!
20:10 Krock ban *@*.*
20:11 sofar hah
20:11 Wuzzy i think minetest in recent development is too much relying on mods. the engine keeps is becoming weaker and weaker
20:12 Wuzzy also i dont get why anyone wants debug screen in a mod. was that a joke?
20:12 sofar nope
20:13 Wuzzy i dont get it.
20:13 sofar the reason is that I use it heavily myself for development but I don't expect end users to see or be bothered by it
20:13 Wuzzy i agree debug screen should not be exposed to the normal player. it includes coords and yaw which is bd
20:13 Wuzzy but mods are not the solution for this problem i think
20:13 Wuzzy maybe just disable all things debugging when built in RELEASE mode
20:14 Wuzzy and only enable debug bling-bling when built in DEBUG mode
20:14 Wuzzy my point is, mods are not the solution to everything
20:14 Wuzzy soon you will suggest to implement rendering routine in mods. XD
20:15 Shara Would simply by nice if server owners could decide what is shown to players out of the current debug info.
20:15 Wuzzy I think you are missing the point
20:15 sofar that's a logical fallacy right there
20:15 Wuzzy well partially it is possible with the debug priv. currently wireframe on/off
20:16 Wuzzy sofar: no it was a silly exaggeration :P
20:16 Krock So we currently have on our imaginary TODO list: all debug information about a node, which depends on NDEBUG, the server settings and finally the own settings to format the whole thing
20:16 Krock what you are demanding is overengineering
20:16 sofar mods are not the solution to everything
20:16 sofar you could at least argue to have the debug screen require a permission
20:17 sofar but you didn't do that
20:17 Wuzzy it already does?! at least partially
20:17 Wuzzy debug priv
20:17 Wuzzy i dont think a priv is the answer
20:17 Wuzzy the answer would be to separate player info from debug info completely
20:17 Krock *shrug*  add another minetest.conf setting
20:17 sofar that doesn't solve much
20:17 Wuzzy ???
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20:18 sofar I'd rather see most settings die a horrible death
20:18 Krock xD
20:18 Wuzzy what about ripping out debug screen from release builds?
20:18 Wuzzy if mods want to expose coords and yaw (like orienteering), they can use HUD API
20:18 Krock players will ask about their coordinates
20:18 Shara On an average server, it's compeltely fine for players to get coords and direction and so on (I'd see good to have even), but if you want to start adding in items for those things, the debug info can spoil everything.
20:18 celeron55_ it seems to me that the problem is that some people think the debug mode is a gameplay thing and use it as such, and some people think it's a developer tool
20:19 sofar have a default hud for coords?
20:19 Shara Some kind of setting to control it would fix that easily.
20:19 Wuzzy sofar: yaaaaay
20:19 celeron55_ i think it is a developer tool and shouldn't be used by players, and i think developers shouldn't have to use a mod to see that information
20:19 Shara Don't take it out of debug completely please.
20:19 Wuzzy celeron55_: yaaaaay
20:19 sofar if you solve the coords problem, maybe the debug screen problem isn't so debatable
20:19 Krock and it covers both, celeron55_. Very useful for gameplay but also contains information that players don't care about
20:20 Wuzzy well maybe add another key "show coordinates" and require players to "unlock" it like minimap? *shrug*
20:20 celeron55_ MT is full of stuff that isn't really meant for players but players use because ther wasn't anything else to use
20:20 Wuzzy that way we would also solve the lag problem
20:20 celeron55_ +e
20:20 VanessaE definitely do NOT lose the coordinates.  lots of players use that!
20:20 VanessaE (good for placing street lights)
20:21 Wuzzy VanessaE: It depends on the type of subgame
20:21 sofar geesh too much chat in this channel, I better hide again
20:21 Shara Only servers that have a specific reason should really be removing that debug info for players (at least in my opinion)
20:21 * sofar goes to get an espresso
20:21 VanessaE Wuzzy: irrelevant :P
20:21 Wuzzy celeron55_: well the thing is, just pressing F5 and spoiling gameplay is TEMPTING
20:22 Wuzzy VanessaE: no. just add a server-side way to allow or deny players to see coords and stuff. like we do for minimap already
20:22 celeron55_ some games (like this ffxiv that i'm playing now) show coordinates by default to everyone, whenever the minimap is on screen which is always by default
20:22 VanessaE Wuzzy: a privilege is good enough for that.
20:22 Wuzzy and maybe allow it by default. happy now?
20:22 celeron55_ it's not necessarily a huge bad thing
20:22 Wuzzy or a HUD flag. like minimap not sure
20:22 celeron55_ it really depends on the subgame, in MT
20:23 Wuzzy and mods
20:23 Wuzzy current debug screen completely defeats the purpose of my orienteering mod
20:23 Wuzzy https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=9&amp;t=15247
20:23 Shara It would simply be nice to have an option to remove it. Default with coordinates and direction showing is fine.
20:23 Wuzzy with this mod you have to *earn* seeing your coords, yaw, minimap, etc. many players like it
20:23 Wuzzy you can still press F5 of course but then its considered cheating
20:24 Shara Wuzzy: Yup. I was working on somethign similar way back, before finding your mod.. but had already realised it was pointless as things are.
20:24 celeron55_ it should be noted that the more features the servers get to decide, the more tempting it is for someone to publish easily usable cheats for the features
20:24 Wuzzy this doesnt mean we should not even try
20:24 celeron55_ coordinates is a thing that can't be hidden from a modified client and can't be detected
20:25 celeron55_ not necessarily
20:25 Wuzzy ah.
20:25 celeron55_ but it's a concern
20:25 Wuzzy of course
20:25 Wuzzy well it can be tempting for singleplayer as well
20:25 Shara celeron55_: I actually originally wanted this for a server that includes mazes. You are meant to lose track of which direction you are going.
20:25 Wuzzy i think cheats should not be accesible with a single key press, even in singleplayer. there should be more effort ;)
20:25 Shara Also the ability to point at a node to check what it is was a problem there... because they could easily which nodes were actually traps.
20:26 Wuzzy good point
20:26 Shara Hmm... was was*
20:26 celeron55_ i think the debug modes could be put behind a command line flag at least
20:26 Wuzzy this gives an even stronger case for ripping out debug screen from release
20:26 Krock not pointless at all. Even with the debug screen, it's not good readable. Wuzzy, your mod brings it into a nice format that's easily readable for everyone (even android)
20:26 Shara Disabling those things would be bad on normal servers, but there are plenty of good reasons to do it.
20:27 Wuzzy then just allow it by default
20:27 Wuzzy because most servers DO want "free coordinates"
20:27 VanessaE wait, isn't there *already* a "debug" priv (for wireframe mode)?  why not just use that for coords et al?
20:27 Shara Yup, but let anyone who has a reason to turn it off.
20:27 Wuzzy YES
20:27 Wuzzy wait a moment i think i have an issue about the debug screen
20:28 Wuzzy here it is: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4556
20:28 Wuzzy <WuzzyBot> Title of link is: “No selection box outline visible when pointing node behind liquid”
20:28 Wuzzy ;-)
20:29 celeron55_ "server-disableable coordinate display for players" and "debug display for developers" should probably be separate things
20:29 Wuzzy exactly
20:29 celeron55_ modders also want the debug display, and they usually use release builds
20:29 Krock Wuzzy, like this: #4556
20:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4556 -- Keep debugging details away from player by default
20:29 Wuzzy damn. right.
20:30 Shara I'm against it being off by default, but for it being possible to turn off
20:30 Wuzzy well i also suggested extending the meaning of debug priv
20:30 Wuzzy no debug priv = no debug screen. easy
20:30 VanessaE again, my players frequently use coords as an aid for placing lampposts
20:31 VanessaE (it's a standard on my servers to put them every 10m, on the 10's)
20:31 Shara Same as VanessaE. and I don't want to need to give people access to the wireframe view so they can see the rest
20:31 Wuzzy VanessaE: i already agreed to making it available by default
20:31 Wuzzy well we could have both?!
20:31 VanessaE Wuzzy: but you're not the one who has to approve or decline a PR :P
20:31 Shara Maybe the option if enabled could be to move everything to the priv?
20:32 Krock but the debug priv isn't granted by default, thus the debug screen won't be visible for the players
20:32 Wuzzy well celeron55_ suggested to make coords exposable as kind of HUD element by default which can be toggled by HUD flag or priv
20:32 VanessaE Wuzzy: which means yet another mod to install (or alter).
20:32 Wuzzy together with debug priv disabled by default this should solve it, i guess
20:32 Krock VanessaE, how about the builtin mod? :P
20:32 Wuzzy VanessaE: not if coords are enabled by default
20:33 * VanessaE shrugs
20:33 VanessaE this is a bunch of noise over very little
20:33 Wuzzy VanessaE: ok or could simply use a priv, then you could simply use server commands
20:34 Wuzzy the discussion started when I complained that param1 and texture of pointed_thing disappeared in debug screen :(
20:34 Wuzzy i still dont know why
20:35 Shara In current stable, as a player I find almost all the current  info when I press f5 useful, and I never once felt like more was needed
20:35 Krock reduced usecase and missing space, I guess.
20:35 Shara So to be honest, short of adding an option for a server to disable it, I see no real point changing it at all
20:36 Wuzzy I am a mod developer so I think I have a more valid opinion of debug screen :P
20:37 Wuzzy Krock: pointed_thing info is now in 3rd line so there is plenty of space
20:37 Shara Sorry Wuzzy, I write mods too.
20:38 Wuzzy and you never needed param2/param1? lol
20:38 Wuzzy ok param1 is more for completeness' sake
20:38 Shara I know what that's set to from the mods.
20:38 Krock I never needed param1/2
20:38 Shara If the code is in front of me, why do I need it in game?
20:38 Wuzzy ...
20:38 Wuzzy for testing of course
20:39 Wuzzy for testing if i set param2 correctly, to make it easier to see the inner workings, etc. in one word: for DEBUGGING
20:39 Wuzzy i find having param2 always available to be incredibly useful.
20:39 Wuzzy saves a lot of restarts
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20:41 celeron55_ maybe there should be a setting where you list what you want on that line
20:42 Wuzzy no this is overkill
20:42 celeron55 like... i guess different people doing different things need to see different things
20:42 Noxarivis[m] celeron55_: hi
20:42 Wuzzy line 3 literally has only 2 bits of information
20:43 celeron55 i'm fine with it just being there
20:43 Wuzzy celeron55: do you know why param1 and texture name was removed from debug screen?
20:43 Wuzzy I added param1 btw
20:43 celeron55 no, haven't followed any of that
20:44 Shara Stable has two lines only... I don't want more than this
20:45 rubenwardy Noxarivis[m], for the last time, this channel is for untopic chat. Stop saying hi to random people
20:45 rubenwardy *ontopic
20:45 rubenwardy +please
20:45 sfan5 maybe matrix.org should be muted here like webchat is
20:46 Noxarivis[m] Sorry, i didnt know that greeting people is also forbitten
20:46 sfan5 not with that attitude
20:47 Wuzzy do you have anything to say about Minetest engine development? then I think you're welcome here
20:47 Noxarivis[m] ?
20:47 Noxarivis[m] attitude?
20:47 Wuzzy I think you're in the wrong channel. Go to #minetest, please. :-)
20:50 Noxarivis[m] > do you have anything to say about Minetest engine development? then I think you're welcome here
20:50 Noxarivis[m] Not right now, i just saw the big ones name and wanted to say hi,
20:50 Noxarivis[m] Id like to know under what attitude its allowed to greed people
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20:51 sfan5 just don't use this channel for any non-coredev purpose (that includes greeting people)
20:51 sofar we've had too many people in here just saying "hi" recently
20:51 sofar and everyone is available to greet in #minetest already
20:52 Noxarivis[m] sofar: ok understood
20:52 sofar !tell paramat let me know if you want me to review some specific mtg prs, I'll try and make some time to go through them again and work on the backlog
20:52 ShadowBot sofar: O.K.
20:53 Wuzzy I just reproduced a bug in -dev which was believed to be fixed: #5330
20:53 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5330 -- Touching a wall while falling, sometimes gets fall damage without landing on it, in version 0.4.15
20:53 Noxarivis[m] sofar: but mintest_game related developement is allowed too right?
20:56 Krock ^ yes, but it's usually much less than about the core
20:57 Noxarivis[m] Krock: ok thx
20:57 Krock these discussions were also moved to -hub when it involves many parties
20:57 sofar -hub is an excellent place for mod and subgame discussions
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21:01 Wuzzy sadly its locked
21:02 Shara It's not exactly difficult to ask for voice.
21:04 Noxarivis[m] Wuzzy: I think the default game should be discussed here, its fine as it is and paramat is very helpful
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