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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2017-07-11

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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09:07 lisac Hey everyone maybe we could port Minetest into PowerPoint
09:07 lisac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNjxe8ShM-8
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10:15 Raven262 Sokomine, I finished the new textures, check out the forum post.
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10:41 IhrFussel So am I right with the assumption that 2 mods CANNOT depend on each other at the same time?
10:42 IhrFussel It seems that's the case... I added "mobs" as dependency in my exp mod and "exp" as dependency in mobs/depends.txt ... and neither will load now
10:46 IhrFussel As soon as I remove my exp mod from the mobs dependencies both mods will load again
10:52 IhrFussel Seems like a major design flaw to me
11:02 IhrFussel Now I have to integrate my exp mod as a lua file inside the mobs mod -.-
11:06 Raven262 What did Calinou to moreblocks and stairsplus, stairsplus is inside moreblocks, maybe something like that would fix it, IhrFussel :P
11:08 IhrFussel Raven262, it's a modpack I think...so you mean changing mobs mod into a modpack and move my mod to it?
11:09 Raven262 wait, it was something different
11:09 Raven262 Yes modpack will probalby solve it
11:09 Raven262 But moreblocks has a mod inside a mod
11:09 Raven262 idk how he did it though
11:09 Raven262 In modpack mods usually depend on each other
11:10 Raven262 that is possibly a workaround that bug that you've got
11:11 IhrFussel It doesn't matter now I already changed all exp tables to mobs and moved my init.lua code to exp.lua in mobs/
11:11 Raven262 Well, it will work anyway :P
11:12 IhrFussel I should be able to use the global table "mobs" from init.lua in my exp.lua right?
11:13 Raven262 Of course
11:13 Raven262 Why not?
11:14 Raven262 Its global, afaik it can be loaded from anywhere
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12:13 IhrFussel But regarding my design flaw comment: I'm guessing right now the engine does NOT wait until all mod names are known and THEN compares the dependencies of them
12:14 IhrFussel But it should wait until no names are left and THEN check if mod x inside mod y depends.txt exists and mod y inside mod x depends.txt exists
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12:42 Raven262 Calinou, Do you have a Nexuiz server too?
12:42 Calinou no, Nexuiz is dead
12:42 Raven262 Damn
12:42 Raven262 Xonotic then?
12:56 KaadmY Xonotic <3
12:57 Raven262 I'm gonna install it now
13:13 Raven262 IhrFussel, you there?
13:14 Raven262 Ah no matter, found a solution.
13:14 Raven262 Sorry for pinging.
13:15 IhrFussel Raven262, I'm there now xP
13:15 Raven262 Okay, what the teleport request command on your server? xD
13:15 Raven262 My brother has joined and leveled to 10
13:16 Raven262 He wants to come to my dungeon
13:17 IhrFussel I made it as accessible as possible...you can use common commands used for tp in Minetest /teleport, /tp or /tpr
13:17 Raven262 Okay
13:19 IhrFussel is your bother h... ?
13:22 Raven262 Yea
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14:12 lisac is swearing against the rules, IhrFussel?
14:12 lisac sorry :(
14:13 IhrFussel Not exactly swearing but "fucker" triggered the "check for insult" code
14:14 IhrFussel "fuck" wouldn't kick you for example
14:14 IhrFussel "fuck you" would again
14:17 Shara Hello all
14:17 lisac hey Shara
14:17 Shara Hi lisac :)
14:24 Raven262 Hello Shara
14:25 twoelk hm, chequered insults - might look interesting
14:27 * twoelk wonders wether this counts as <kleinkariert>
14:31 twoelk so an insult chequered server might be plaid on
14:34 * twoelk tries to focus on calculating some ventilation duct sizes again
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14:53 * red-001 wonders whu
14:53 red-001 why*
15:18 * nerzhul wonderwhuman
15:20 Krock joined #minetest-hub
15:20 Krock o/
15:27 benrob0329 Having to use my old tablet since my phone screen broke, it holds up rather well
15:28 benrob0329 Some things are kinda slow
15:29 benrob0329 But after turning off all animations, and forcing GPU rendering, and rooting it, removing apps, and turning off stuff at boot, it runs good for most things
15:36 Krock tried installing gentoo yet?
15:36 Krock ^ benrob0329
15:37 benrob0329 Krock: would need android display server
15:43 Krock benrob0329, I was just kidding ;)
15:46 benrob0329 Krock: well, ive actually thought about it so...XD
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16:55 shivajiva I see raymoo is willing to create and distribute modified clients when the project doesn't meet his approval...interesting attitude...
17:21 Shara Seems like he backed down and was just trying to teach us some kind of (very unneeded and unwanted) lesson
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17:38 nore could we just close this issue please? there is *absolutely no way* to do that, none at all
17:39 Shara nore: the precise suggestion of the issue aside, is there really nothing at all that can be done to limit the problems we're having in some way?
17:39 nore Shara: server-side cheat detection
17:40 Shara but that doesnt seem to be happening
17:40 nore you *have* to assume the clients are untrustworthy, because there is not way you can assume they are
17:40 nore yeah, well, it is complicated
17:40 Shara as I've posted in the issue, I just want a solution
17:40 Shara I dont want this specific one, but it's all that is being put forward
17:41 nore but the energy should be put into server-side cheat detection instead into verifying that the client has not been modified, because it is not possible
17:41 Shara Is there any chance of seeing progress on that then?
17:41 nore whatever you try to do, it is trivial to just change the source code to fake an official client
17:42 nore well, I hope so -  but not from me for now, as I'm not coding mt stuff at the moment
17:42 Shara we see lots of new things, like CSM, which though great opens up more issues... and very little work done on security
17:43 Shara and a lot of server owners are unhappy about this
17:44 Shara I have actually had to prevent new players joining one of my servers because of this.
17:45 Shara I try to open the server to new players again every time I can, but even then I've had a couple get through who made problems
17:46 Shara One idiot with a "hacked" client and the ability to change IP address can pretty much hold a server hostage as it stands
18:13 garywhite What's all this then? (I was on another network, joined mid-conversation, so I only have about 20 lines scrollback)
18:14 Shara gary, you can check the log like anyone
18:14 garywhite right, I forgot about the log.
18:16 garywhite who is raymoo?
18:17 sofar There are many ways to defeat 'oredetect' btw
18:17 sofar same with csm chat mods
18:17 sofar just rate limit messages and kick when a client sends 2 messages within 1 second
18:17 sofar heck, IRC even does that
18:18 rubenwardy rate limiting is already implemented
18:18 sofar what actually is the biggest problem ?
18:19 Shara for me, people able to give themselves fly/noclip and to avoid damage
18:19 sofar that should be detectable server-side
18:19 sofar so let's work on a solution that covers that
18:20 sofar any player that has a vertical velocity of 0 for more than 2 server ticks and isn't standing on a node is cheating
18:20 Shara any solution is good by me
18:21 Shara so long as it works and doesnt put too much strain on the server
18:21 Shara The server in question is a PVP server, and people are using these things to get an unfair advantage
18:21 Shara Like noclipping through walls to attack people who thought they were safe, and so on
18:22 garywhite Not more hackers
18:22 Calinou <Shara> One idiot with a "hacked" client and the ability to change IP address can pretty much hold a server hostage as it stands
18:23 Calinou a Minecraft server I played on (and a Sauerbraten server) had a way to detect VPNs fairly reliably
18:23 Calinou (including self-hosted ones on rented VPSes)
18:23 Calinou https://github.com/pisto/ASkidban
18:23 sofar detecting VPNs should be doable
18:23 sofar but it would require some more work
18:24 Shara I'm less worried about the ban dodgers if they cant do the other things
18:25 sofar Calinou: entirely feasible to build that with mods & external services
18:25 sofar you can do a lot more with minetest even
18:36 Hijiri sofar: what if a player is lagging and doesn't send updates in time
18:37 Hijiri also should note that "vertical velocity" can't come from get_player_velocity because that can be faked
18:37 red-001 Hijiri, then they have bad luck?
18:38 Hijiri red-001: you shouldn't be banned for bad luck
18:38 Hijiri though I guess nobody said ban
18:38 Hijiri could just notify admins
18:38 red-001 just kick them or something
18:38 red-001 they didn't have a good connection anyway
18:38 Hijiri it could have been a lag spike
18:39 Hijiri what if the player is jumping over lava or something and they get saved over lava
18:39 red-001 can't help it
18:39 Hijiri you can help it by not kicking
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18:39 red-001 either you get anticheat with some false positives or no anticheat
18:39 Hijiri you can notify a mod to look at the user
18:40 red-001 that's just how life is
18:40 Hijiri A better way to detect would be to only try to detect fliers in motion
18:40 Hijiri flying is not useful unless you are moving so that is good enough
18:40 Hijiri well, unless you were moving at some point
18:41 red-001 I say it's very much useful without moving
18:41 red-001 think falling
18:41 Hijiri yes, but you could do that with the "0 vertical velocity" check too
18:41 Hijiri just release fly before you stop completely
18:42 sofar client lag is known, btw
18:42 sofar you could account for it
18:43 Hijiri isn't that average lag?
18:43 sofar averages are calculated by what?
18:43 Hijiri I guess if it's in the engine you could wait for packets to arrive
18:43 Hijiri sofar: I don't know, maybe a running average is kept of packet latencies?
18:44 sofar exactly, there is raw data somewhere
18:44 Hijiri Why not just wait for the next movement update then, instead of 2 ticks or whatever
18:44 Hijiri you won't know how much a player lagged on a particular update until that update arrives
18:44 sofar what if a player is hovering in a spot?
18:45 sofar but sure
18:45 Hijiri They should still be sending updates if not lagging, right?
18:45 Hijiri IF lagging, you can't tell if they are hovering or falling whil lagging
18:45 sofar no movement -> no updates I think
18:45 Hijiri really? I didn't know, but I guess that makes sense
18:45 Hijiri So how would you distinguish someone who is lagging while falling from someone hovering with fly
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18:51 Shara I'd prefer it not to be an auto ban, just for something to happen to make the actually cheating itself pointless, if possible
18:52 Shara Like, fast is already kind of dealt with in a way that makes it annoying to cheat for
18:53 lisac hey why not force the player to land if they are in open air for more than 5 seconds?
18:53 lisac cheater would have to go up down up down
18:53 lisac and legitimate players wouldn't get stuck in air
18:53 Shara they could still noclip through a wall in that time
18:53 Shara that's the main issue for me, more than fly itself
18:54 Shara though the damage avoidance is worse again
18:55 Shara Thankfully that seems far rarer than fly/noclip though
18:58 lisac maybe check every second if player is inside a node, then record it?
18:58 lisac don't punish the player for one time, but if he is in node a couple of times, like 3, he gets punished?
18:58 lisac that way, players stuck due to lag don't get punished
18:58 sofar kill the player
18:59 * lisac > Amon Amarth - The Fate Of Norns  - [ Fate Of Norns #3 ] - [ 04:24 / 05:57 ]
18:59 sofar prevent resurrecting for 15 seconds
18:59 sofar second time, 1 minute
18:59 sofar third time, 15 minutes
18:59 sofar if they log off while dead, ban them for 4 hours
19:00 * lisac > Amon Amarth - The Fate Of Norns  - [ Fate Of Norns #3 ] - [ 05:27 / 05:57 ]
19:00 lisac awesome
19:00 Krock final repost before leaving: https://i.redd.it/fjcv9evg6u8z.png  we should use this code. looks advanced.
19:00 lisac moment
19:01 lisac my script got triggered on NOWPLAYING2
19:01 lisac CTCP
19:01 lisac but instead of sending it to the right channel, it sent it to whatever channel I was in
19:01 lisac Krock, we can beat that record
19:02 Krock yes, luckily github has a large file feature ... somehow
19:02 KaadmY Git doesn't support files larger than 500mb IIRC
19:02 KaadmY Github has a special thing for those
19:06 lisac maybe we could remove mapgens and keep a few fully generated maps in the repo
19:06 lisac that should beat the record by a couple TB
19:06 lisac fully generated, ex. 32 000 all directions
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20:54 Jordach >gets AKG monitors
20:54 Jordach hnnnnnng
20:57 Megaf hm
20:57 Megaf I'm happy with my SONY
20:57 Megaf wait
20:57 Megaf monitor as in audio monitor? As in speaker
20:59 Megaf Jordach: I got these https://proclockers.com/reviews/audio​/genius-sp-hf800a-3-way-wood-speakers
21:00 Megaf And they are actually good
21:00 Jordach Megaf, AKG K271 MKII
21:00 Megaf oh
21:00 Megaf headphone monitors
21:01 Megaf I got this one http://www.philips.co.uk/c-p/SHL5800_​10/headband-headphones/specifications
21:01 Megaf Frequency response
21:01 Megaf 10–28,000  Hz
21:02 Jordach LUL
21:02 Megaf I used the AKG already
21:02 Jordach it's not the HZ range, its the reproductional ability
21:02 Megaf but I hate it how it feels
21:04 Megaf Jordach: your headphone and mine are similar in specifications tho
21:05 Megaf yours is louder tho
21:05 Megaf but mine are already loud enough to make my ears bleed
21:08 Fixer gonna make a moove? https://github.com/minetes​t-mods/moreblocks/pull/79
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