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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2017-08-08

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Time Nick Message
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03:55 benrob0329 rubenwardy, sofar: https://apps.nextcloud.com/apps/tasks
03:56 benrob0329 (Offtopic)
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10:51 Megaf Hi texmex
10:51 Megaf whoops
10:51 Megaf that was meant to tenplus1
10:51 Megaf Hi all
10:53 Dumbeldor Hi Megaf
10:54 lumidify_ joined #minetest-hub
10:59 lumidify joined #minetest-hub
11:01 Megaf that moment you get so lost in you DE you dont even know if you are in GNOME, XFCE or MATE
11:01 lumidify1 joined #minetest-hub
11:03 Megaf I mean, look at it http://i.imgur.com/pfQvdwn.png
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11:12 IhrFussel Is the color definition mandatory when setting the player sky back to regular sky??
11:13 IhrFussel The color seems obsolete in this case cause the engine is supposed to use whatever current sky color the daytime defines
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11:39 Bobr2 its to  early
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12:26 IhrFussel One of my players claims they got a square minimap with an arrow in it...how?
12:27 DS-minetest IhrFussel: sneak+minimp
12:28 IhrFussel I feel like MT has way too many hidden settings/features that nobody uses
12:29 IhrFussel Because nobody gets introduced to it by the game
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12:31 DS-minetest you mean like inventory_items_animations?
12:32 IhrFussel Yes and many other settings that are buried in "advanced settings" almost nobody ever edits because it looks extremely complicated...other games chose a better approach: a long scrollable page of settings
12:34 IhrFussel Of course many advanced settings SHOULD be hidden...but things like view range, inventory stuff, HUD stuff should be on the front settings page IMO
12:39 twoelk you could formulate your suggestions in a nice overview list that clearly shows how you imagine the organisation of settings - someplace for others to see and discuss
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12:54 * twoelk wonders wether he is still connected
12:56 Fuchs twoelk: you reconnected, yes
12:58 Shara IhrFussel: the alternative map locks the map with north up, instead of turning the map with you. Just depends how you want your map to work.
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14:09 lumidify1 I have a question for server owners: roughly how much bandwidth do your servers use on average per month? I'm just wondering in case I decide to run a server myself sometime.
14:41 Zeno` joined #minetest-hub
14:42 Zeno` hi. can someone please remove my +o access?
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15:02 ThomasMonroe_ Zeno why are you leaving?
15:03 Zeno` I've lost interest in the project to be honest and I'm working on a game of my own. To be fair I haven't contributed much for quite a while anyway
15:04 ThomasMonroe_ ah ok
15:04 ThomasMonroe_ makes sense
15:04 Zeno` There is no animosity... I just need to break free
15:04 Zeno` if that makes sense
15:05 Zeno` I mean it's a good project, but it hasn't interested me all that much for quite a while. I feel it's stagnated somewhat as well
15:05 ThomasMonroe_ i understand
15:22 Fixer Zeno`: thanks for your contributions
15:24 Zeno` you're welcome. And thank you
15:25 KaadmY How do you report people on the forums
15:25 KaadmY Someone sent me a massive PM regarding OC, said he sent it to everyone
15:25 Zeno` send me a copy ;)
15:26 KaadmY What's your forum name?
15:26 Zeno` I dunno
15:26 Zeno` Zeno` I think
15:26 KaadmY :P
15:28 Zeno` maybe just Zeno
15:28 Zeno` it's been so long lol
15:28 KaadmY Yeah it's "Zeno"
15:36 Fixer if only more server owners used blockless protection...
15:36 lisac Fixer, the advertiser inside me is screaming 'Craigs server uses areas mod!'
15:36 Fixer lisac: yeah, i know
15:37 lisac Hey KaadmY can I get a copy of that PM? Name's lisacvuk
15:37 Zeno` btw KaadmY, CBS in most certainly NOT interest in OC's ravings
15:37 Zeno` (I have spoken to them)
15:38 KaadmY Heh
15:38 KaadmY Dunno why he sent it to me though
15:38 Zeno` wow
15:38 KaadmY I assume he sent it to other people too
15:39 lisac KaadmY, maybe he saw your PR
15:39 KaadmY Other people have PRs too though
15:39 Zeno` oh, the guy (OC) is insane. He doesn't need reasons
15:39 KaadmY Seems strange especially since I'm pretty unknown
15:40 KaadmY Also I really don't care
15:48 cx384 DS-minetest got this PM, too.
15:50 cx384 title = "Reality and Conscience series" right?
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16:03 ThomasMonroe_ everyone got it
16:45 Fixer VanessaE: https://i.imgur.com/Sa2Ky9I.png
16:49 Sokomine always surprising that things don't work if you give another variable the same name :/ other languages would have told about such errors :(
16:51 Sokomine oh. bad to hear, zeno. but hope you'll have fun developing your own game. and hope you'll stay here as a listener or come back later on :-)
16:54 Sokomine very sad how things developped with oldcoder
17:03 ThomasMonroe_ yes it is
17:11 Fixer VanessaE: have you moved to tree grow via sapling on dreamb?
17:11 VanessaE I don't remember.
17:11 Sokomine afaik dreambuilder only places saplings at mapgen time and later grows them via abm?
17:11 Sokomine or is that info outdated?
17:12 VanessaE oh and yeah I know about that error
17:12 VanessaE you can configure moretrees to use saplings though, there's a file for that.
17:13 VanessaE should be moretrees_settings.txt  in the world dir.
17:13 VanessaE as for Oldcoder, he can go to hell.
17:13 Sokomine i'd love my trees lib to be used more :-) it would be very practical for tree-like things. it does all the registering of the nodes involved, does the growing of saplings into trees...but does not place anything at mapgen time
17:13 Sokomine once i find time i need to adjust it to the new lbm tree growing method in default
17:14 VanessaE also, good afternoon all.
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17:24 Sokomine hi :-)
17:24 Sokomine good...evening
17:26 Shara What an eventful day
17:26 Shara Hi all
17:27 Sokomine oh? did something happen which i missed?
17:27 VanessaE what events?
17:29 Shara Zeno and the things about PMs...
17:29 VanessaE oh that shit again
17:29 Shara Kind of why I left it at that
17:30 Sokomine oh yes. hoped it was just zeno getting intrested more in other projects and comming back again later
17:30 Shara Sounds like Zeno is pretty much done to me :(
17:30 Fixer kaeza: kebab
17:31 Fixer gonna make a move
17:32 Fixer VanessaE: where are animals in dreambuilder?
17:32 VanessaE the carbone_mobs mod.
17:32 VanessaE sheep, rats, some underground monsters
17:33 Fixer VanessaE: i'm walking for like 30 min, still no sheep
17:33 VanessaE been meaning to give mobs_redo a try sometime
17:33 VanessaE but I'm kinda burnt out
17:33 Fixer VanessaE: trying out GC64 build, no OOM for 20 min yetg
17:34 Fixer VanessaE: for 40 min*
17:34 Fixer VanessaE: this is big
17:34 VanessaE good luck
17:36 Fixer usually it is 5-10 min and OOM
17:36 Fixer 40 min - no oom
17:36 Fixer GC64 is doing
17:36 Fixer same for that 2.5gb mem code, doing
17:36 Fixer worldedit - doing
17:37 Sokomine sounds fine, fixer
17:37 Fixer very fine
17:37 Fixer OOM were worst problems for me
17:38 Sokomine VanessaE: mobs_redo seems to do fine on many servers. some mobs are nice. i don't like the way breeding is done, with mobs spreading hearts when fed
17:39 VanessaE maybe that can be turned off?  *shrug*
17:39 Shara mobs_redo mostly works well for me
17:39 Manzano_ burnt out VanessaE? does it taste like chiken
17:40 CWz Anyway, mobs redo is split into 3 mods.
17:40 VanessaE "it tastes like.... despair."
17:41 * Sokomine hands VanessaE a deliscious piece of cheese cake that can be very good for the mood
17:41 CWz What? Burnt VanessaE tastes like this pear?
17:41 Shara CWz: 3?
17:41 CWz Hmm 4 perhaps
17:41 * Sokomine turns lava into a variant that doesn't burn
17:42 CWz We need frostbite in minetest
17:42 Sokomine could be, yes. some mobs are split into packages. which is fine. not all hostile creatures are desired in all worlds
17:43 Sokomine standing on ice without footwear might be quite cold, yes :-)
17:44 CWz Mobs_redo is great lots of thirdparty mobs
17:44 VanessaE but seriously, between this oldcoder bullshit and my just plain being tired, Minetest is kinda "meh" for me right now, guys.  sorry :(
17:44 Sokomine some mobs have very nice models
17:44 Shara mobs_redo is only one mod, but then you add mods for the actual monsters
17:45 Shara So you end up with how ever many mods to get whatever you want
17:45 Shara I think DarkLands has 6 or 7 mobs mods total for example.
17:47 Sokomine there are many cute mods, i.e. the penguins. the cows have a better (smaller) size than in the animals modpack
17:47 Sokomine many wool providers roam the world, waiting for players to right-click them with shears
17:47 Shara I'm just sad the nssm mob models are so ridiculously huge
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18:26 IhrFussel Just had someone joining my server JUST to tell the people to join another server...and it was not the first time someone told my players to visit that server, I feel like the admin there is desperate for players
18:27 Shara Fussel, I've had players do that when I know the admin is against them doing it as well.
18:27 Shara It can work both ways
18:28 IhrFussel Not sure what benefits the players would have if the admin is against it
18:28 Shara If the player has high privs there but the server is empty.
18:28 Shara I've seen that before
18:29 IhrFussel The reason I'm sharing it here is cause I wanna know if another server owner recently had a player named something like "homt[number]" or "homthack" telling players to join "shiningmoon"
18:29 Shara Also had someone spam-advertising Xanadu once, and I know full well Ten didn't ask them to.
18:30 Shara Name doesn't show on today's logs at least for me
18:31 IhrFussel Nah doesn't have to be today, last time he joined was a week ago...but the pattern is always the same: join -> tell [random player(s)] to join the shiningmoon -> leave
18:32 Shara Nothing at all for "shiningmoon"
18:32 Shara Though I only checked the IRC logs, not the full server logs.
18:32 IhrFussel The ingame chat log would be more helpful xP
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18:35 IhrFussel Shiningmoon is a minetesthosting server lol? (25/07/17 19:56:36) [Heircope1]: Turtle and Shara MerleManga join the Shiningmoon put minetesthosting.com and port 30533 please
18:36 Shara ...
18:36 Shara It's Faker
18:36 Shara Check the IP address really.
18:36 IhrFussel Yes it is him but I wanna know WHY he continues to advertise that server
18:36 Shara Why does he do anything?
18:37 IhrFussel He makes my players curious when he says that so he kinda damages my business
18:37 Shara Trying to understand Faker will earn you nothing but a headache.
18:37 Shara I tried, but I could never get any sense out of him.
18:38 Shara I mean, why did he pretend to be me, get full privs on two servers, then do nothing but make multiple accounts to also give full privs to and change the signs at spawn?
18:40 IhrFussel He doesn't seem "dangerous" but "retarted"
18:40 Fixer IhrFussel: "tell the people to join another server", just ban those guys, if it is clearly advertising, and if it is against the rules, I've seen this in other games too
18:40 Shara FUssel: yup, same assessment
18:40 IhrFussel I mean anyone really malicious would've caused A LOT of trouble with such privs...and all he does is changing signs?
18:41 Shara Banning him never works unless you want to ban his whole ISP/country
18:41 Shara He's also posted videos on youtube before that were just him running about and lots of interference.
18:42 IhrFussel Fixer, unfortunately many countries/ISPs still give out dynamic IPs which means a ban won't do a thing
18:42 Fixer IhrFussel: then write a simple mod that detects links and prevent them to show
18:42 Shara I just learned to identify him right away from what he says (as you saw today)
18:43 Shara Fixer, why would it be a link?
18:43 Fixer Shara: detect any kind of advertisement via lua and just kick such players
18:44 IhrFussel It's not a link just the name of the server mostly...I could ban the server name and "minetesthosting.com" and "[port]"
18:44 Shara And if he says "join shiningmoon" or "come to shiningmoon"?
18:46 Fixer Shara: detect join and shiningmoon -> kick
18:46 Shara Fixer: there's so many variations.
18:51 IhrFussel also if players realize "shiningmoon" is banned they will find other spelling options like sh!ningmoon, shiningm00n, s h i n i n g m o o n etc etc
18:51 Sokomine IhrFussel: i always thought such players that just join to advertise other servers are very young children who hope to get more players on their server
18:52 Sokomine Shara: i met a fake vanessae on maikaumines mineclone2 server recently. then later on there was a vanessac. didn't even do much at all. the faking of the name thus remains a mystery
18:52 Sokomine probably very very young
18:54 Sokomine in general i do like the attitide on mt servers. server owners are aware that there are other servers, and players may talk about those other servers instead of pretending there's nothing else in the world
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18:54 IhrFussel Sokomine, the actual problem is not the faking but the fact that many (young) server owners simply BELIEVE that they are the real persons and grant them privs
18:55 Sokomine that's a problem, yes. i always check on irc if unsure
18:55 IhrFussel And the guy who advertises the server doesn't seem to be that young
18:56 Sokomine we could write it in a guide for new server owners. explain to them that any name can be taken and that there's no global namespace for mt players
18:56 Sokomine doesn't seem particulary grown up to me if all he does is join other servers to advertise for his favorite
18:58 Shara Faker isn't an idiot, and I have seen him pull off a few tricky exploits.
18:58 IhrFussel Advertising on a completely different server usually makes no sense because the server you advertise for will NOT be what the players on server X look for
18:58 Shara Including realising when there is no longer a player account for a protected area, then registering the name to take control of it (...and place more weird signs)
18:58 Sokomine maybe a line like "if you meet someone with a name you know from elsewhere on a server, use other channels (i.e. where you know that person from) to confirm identity"
18:59 Shara Sokomine: It's good advice of course, but then you have to make sure a new server owner reads it...
18:59 Sokomine no. advertising for a particulary server only makes sense if a player expresses intrest in something and that particular something is covered better on another server
19:00 Sokomine Shara: i don't see how we can do more
19:00 Shara I dont' expect anyone to. Nothing is going to compensate for a lack of experience
19:01 IhrFussel The best solution would be universal accounts, but I know the devs are largely against it
19:01 Sokomine a list of hints/faq would help. do we have such a thing? linked directly on the main page, as sticky topic in the server forum part...don't know if such a thing exists
19:02 Sokomine that's right. that would solve the problem but be against the spirit of mt
19:02 IhrFussel One account for all servers but also not being banned on every server if one server bans you...just so that no one else can take your name on any server
19:03 rubenwardy !g starting a server site:wiki.minetest.net
19:03 ShadowBot rubenwardy: Setting up a server/Debian - Minetest Wiki - These instructions have been tested in Debian Jessie ("Testing" as of January 2015) which includes a minetest-server package. A simple Minetest server can be started in any Debian (Ubuntu, Linux Mint or derivative distribution) that has the minetest package by going to its "Server" tab... (8 more messages)
19:03 rubenwardy http://wiki.minetest.net/Setting_up_a_server
19:03 Sokomine ah, thanks, rubenwardy
19:03 lumidify IhrFussel: But then someone would need to maintain the infrastructure needed to have centralised accounts.
19:03 IhrFussel It would be extremely difficult to even implement such global accounts...and it would require a master server with GOOD performance to handle all those requests
19:03 rubenwardy in particular, there's a protecting the server section
19:03 rubenwardy IhrFussel, nah not really
19:04 rubenwardy it would be difficult syncronising
19:04 rubenwardy ie: as we already have a ton of accounts
19:04 Shara Problem is getting new server owners to read that. (Hint: more often than not, they won't)
19:04 rubenwardy actually
19:05 rubenwardy I didn't consider actually implementing it in Minetest, that would be the hardest part to do right
19:05 rubenwardy the master server bit is fairly easy
19:05 Shara Ugh, and seriously.. I can't even look at that page without the editor in me screaming.
19:05 Shara Who to see for  a wiki account?
19:05 rubenwardy Calinou,
19:05 Sokomine rubenwardy: the page does not seem to address that problem. protection mods, fire and tnt are handled - that's good. the social aspects do not seem to be covered. more the technical ones. in a way a server is more demanding regarding the social interaction than anything...
19:06 rubenwardy Sokomine, I was saying that's the page to add any such things
19:06 soupfly joined #minetest-hub
19:06 Sokomine ah. shara got intrested :-) that's good for the page
19:06 Shara I'm willing to write something.... if I can get the good ahead to rewrite parts of that page related to this
19:06 Shara go ahead*
19:06 Sokomine sounds good :-) now you only need to get an account to edit the wiki
19:07 IhrFussel MAYBE it would be useful to add hint messages while loading a server...many online games do that
19:07 Shara That's usually for players, not server owners
19:07 Sokomine hardware requirements and mods recommended might also be an intresting point
19:09 Calinou hi rubenwardy :P
19:09 Calinou Shara: PM me your email address and desired username, for getting a wiki account
19:09 Shara How to recommend mods though? I mean, how to even get a mod onto the wiki mod list unless you self-promote?
19:09 IhrFussel Shara, but usually server owners also play on their server so they would see the messages either way
19:10 Sokomine hm, that might indeed be tricky. there's already the areas mod mentionned. that's good
19:10 Shara Still not appropriate to direct guidance specifically for a server owner into something for players
19:10 Sokomine ah. /spawn is something servers need
19:10 IhrFussel The problem is MT is kinda both...a client and server
19:11 Sokomine metionning something like inbox also couldn't hurt
19:11 Sokomine trading/shop/money mods
19:11 lumidify If you're going to add anything about hardware requirements, you could also add some average bandwidth measurements (just bringing up the question I asked earlier).
19:11 Sokomine but maybe that's too advanced already
19:12 Sokomine /spawn definitely needs to get mentionned
19:13 IhrFussel Sokomine, do you mean hardware requirements for servers? Cause that won't work, it totally depends on the amount of mods the server owner wants to run and the type of mods
19:13 Shara What Fussel said.
19:13 lisac celeron55, I'm sorry to bother you, but could you please move my mod to release? I placed it on the move thread a month ago
19:14 IhrFussel A server with 10 heavy mods will likely lag more than one with 20 lightweight ones
19:15 IhrFussel I'd say even a cheap Android phone could handle a MT server with just MTG with almost no lag
19:15 tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub
19:15 tenplus1 hi folks
19:16 Sokomine ihrfussel: i know that it's not easy and depends a lot on circumstances. listing some examples - i.e. a very low-performance server like a raspberry ("keep the amount of mods low"), a medium server with a few players, and a high-end server willing to serve 20+ players and running mesecons, technic, and whatever. just very rough information
19:16 IhrFussel Well...it could probably help a few average joe's
19:17 Sokomine IhrFussel: i've such a one. as long as the device has sufficient ram, it works nicely as a client. technicly it could probably run a server, but if you'd want that...
19:17 IhrFussel joes*
19:17 Sokomine hi ten
19:17 IhrFussel hello tenplus1
19:17 tenplus1 o/ :P
19:17 tenplus1 how's things
19:17 Sokomine yes. just so that people get a general, broad idea
19:18 tenplus1 hi soko
19:19 Shara Hi Ten
19:19 tenplus1 hey Shara
19:19 IhrFussel MT Android as a client needs ~ 50 MB RAM (with no extra mods) ... any phone today should be able to run it, but if we talk connecting to servers....the RAM requirements range from 10 - 3000 MB I'd say
19:20 Sokomine it wasn't much fun with a very cheap tablet with just 0.5 gb ram. 1 gb ram was fine
19:21 IhrFussel 512 MB phone has no chance on my server...will crash before joining ... I think my server needs ~ 700
19:21 Sokomine such things might be of intrest to hopeful new server owners as well. if they want to run a small server for a couple of friends who plan to join with their tablets the needs will be diffrent than for other servers
19:21 Shara Well, I can't do much about hardware requirements (I don't know enough), but I can add some general guidelines.
19:22 Shara Like not typing /grant all on random strangers who happened to use a well known name :)
19:22 Sokomine the general guidelines will be fine :-) just throwing in some ideas (as long as i don't have to do the work it's easy to have ideas :))
19:23 Shara Feel free to make a list and send my way then
19:25 IhrFussel You should probably also explain why many players have this name pattern "[A-Z][a-z]{1,}[0-9]{3,4}"
19:25 IhrFussel Cause too many server owners seem to think those are bots
19:26 Shara I don't understand why they think it.
19:27 IhrFussel Cause often it's the exact same name just with another number
19:27 IhrFussel And I gotta say the names DO look computer generated
19:28 tenplus1 we ban names with too many numbers, beginning with guest or sara xxxx and swears
19:29 IhrFussel The app devs were clever when they changed the guest pattern from "GuestXXXX" to this cause it is nearly impossible to track down every possible name
19:29 rubenwardy that regex helps, even when there's false positives
19:30 rubenwardy also, relevant: https://xkcd.com/810/
19:30 IhrFussel Nah that regex would lock out a LOT of players not connecting from apps
19:30 IhrFussel You decided to count them as "guests" in the server list which is mainly why the servers JUMP so much
19:31 tenplus1 hi ruben
19:31 IhrFussel The whole server list algorithm is out of control IMO
19:32 rubenwardy hi tenplus1
19:33 tenplus1 o/
19:33 IhrFussel I did the test and added an ingame script that checked my server position in the list every few minutes...and sometimes it jumped from 16th to 5th place in a matter of minutes...and then from 2nd to 25th place
19:33 IhrFussel Is that what you call normal?
19:34 tenplus1 all depends on users, max users, uptime, latency/lag
19:34 Fixer IhrFussel: names are comp generated, players are real
19:34 IhrFussel tenplus1, the servers did NOT jump like that last year
19:35 tenplus1 I think the rating system was changed
19:35 CalebDavis hi ten i am starting work on a subgame :)
19:35 tenplus1 hi Caleb...  kewl
19:35 IhrFussel It because the server list algorithm now counts any of those A-Za-z0-9 names "guests" and only gives them 1/8 points
19:36 IhrFussel So there are WAYYYYYY more guests now on servers than before
19:37 IhrFussel And the worst part is it is not something the server owner can actually control (unless they implement this extreme regex)
19:37 rubenwardy this tool tells you why you get a score: https://gist.github.com/rube​nwardy/6d6882db0cbe1b5b24be
19:37 rubenwardy it may be out of date though
19:37 rubenwardy but it's easy to update
19:37 rubenwardy literally copy and paste code from the master server list
19:38 IhrFussel rubenwardy, I updated and used that script if it's the one you once told me...the main reason why the servers jump so much is simply because too many guests play now on servers and cause this unstable behavior
19:39 rubenwardy looks like the only thing they changed in the algorithm was the guest -> any prefix
19:39 rubenwardy yeah
19:39 IhrFussel Yes so if a server has 5 "real" players and 10 "guests" it will be low in the list likely
19:41 IhrFussel Fact is: In the past (before app devs changed guest names to those patterns) there were hardly any guests on servers ... now it's the complete opposite
19:45 IhrFussel I'm guessing the app devs thought "many servers don't allow empty names and our app users will not be able to play -> they think the app is broken -> delete app" so they made it so the app auto-assigns a name to prevent the "empty name" error
19:46 Shara It is kind of annoying to be ranked down because of which people happen to join my server.
19:47 IhrFussel Shara, yes EXACTLY
19:47 tenplus1 I'd remove the guest filter from ranking... a player is a player afterall
19:47 Shara A lot of these players actually build things.. and I have had some stick around a really long time
19:48 Shara I mean, sure, I could ban all that fit that pattern, but I don't think it's fair to
19:48 IhrFussel One of those players is actually a helper on my server (or was one and became too inactive) ... they are people like us with the difference that they simply did NOT enter a name before connecting
19:49 Shara In some cases, I think they do enter a name but the app forces a number on the end unless you play
19:49 IhrFussel I really don't think it's fair to see them as guests...there are no guests in MT, anyone who connects for the first time gets an account
19:49 Shara I've had players who had both "name" and "name-numbers" user names they play under depending on where they connect from
19:50 IhrFussel Under "guest" I understand something that DELETES itself after the player left
19:51 tenplus1 the no_guest mod asks them to choose another player name if it starts with guest or has too many numbers after it
19:52 IhrFussel tenplus1, the "GuestXXXX" or "[0-9]" rules are deprecated...the app devs use very random names now because they KNOW server owners will not be able to block them 100% WITHOUT having false positives
19:53 Fixer IhrFussel: Elisabeth666 is better than Guest666
19:53 tenplus1 +1 ... also hi fixer
19:53 Fixer or capecuppuppyhitler
19:53 Fixer hi
19:53 behalebabo joined #minetest-hub
19:53 tenplus1 hi behalebabo
19:53 behalebabo hello
19:54 IhrFussel But I doubt we can convince the devs to remove the "guest penalty" code
19:54 IhrFussel Another option would be to add an array with all known prefixes without the numbers and check against that array...but that will be cumbersome and slow
19:56 Shara Just don't see the need of it myself - a player is a player, as you said. But it's also not a hugely bad thing if servers move up and down the list a lot (gets exposure for more servers)
19:56 Fixer you all just overzealous :}
19:57 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
19:57 IhrFussel Fixer, do you think it's a good thing when your server jumps places in the server list WITHOUT you having any control over it?
19:57 tenplus1 hi thomas
19:57 ThomasMonroe hi ten
19:58 IhrFussel It just takes a few app users to bring down your server 10+ places
19:58 IhrFussel This is extremely stupid sorry
19:58 Fixer IhrFussel: i've heared some discussion about this on IRC, there is algorithm, i think you can find it here https://github.com/minetest/master-server
19:59 IhrFussel Fixer, dude that algorithm is what we are talking about...the "guests code" is deprecated
19:59 Fixer IhrFussel: yep
19:59 Fixer IhrFussel: if you have some suggestions, open an issue over there
20:00 IhrFussel You cannot simply say all [A-Z][a-z]{1,}[0-9]{3,4} players are "guests" this is wrong...that means there are 50+% GUESTS on a server
20:00 tumeninodes joined #minetest-hub
20:00 tenplus1 hi tumeni
20:01 Fixer IhrFussel: nobody cares, guest = player
20:01 tumeninodes howdy tenplus1
20:01 tumeninodes hi fixer
20:01 IhrFussel But guests only get 1/8 point in the server list and "real" players get 1.0 points
20:01 Fixer hello
20:01 Fixer IhrFussel: hmmmm, then algorithm should be altered
20:02 Fixer IhrFussel: open an issue about that
20:03 IhrFussel The devs will close it shortly after
20:03 IhrFussel Nothing against any core dev personally, but they can be super stubborn about something
20:05 ThomasMonroe i agree there
20:06 IhrFussel I feel like IF they would agree with us, they would have removed that code instead of updating it
20:07 IhrFussel I can try to open an issue about it...there's nothing to lose I guess
20:12 Fixer https://techreport.com/news/32362/amd-confirms-​linux-performance-marginality-problem-on-ryzen
20:13 tumeninodes na ah
20:13 tenplus1 eek
20:14 tumeninodes AMD needs to fix that :P
20:14 tenplus1 thankfully bios updates shoudl fix thid
20:15 rubenwardy maybe see what sfan5 thinks
20:16 IhrFussel https://github.com/minetes​t/master-server/issues/17
20:19 Fixer IhrFussel: +1 -ed
20:19 sfan5 IhrFussel: the point of the ordering code is to move high-quality servers to the top
20:19 sfan5 quality of a server is also determined by its players
20:19 tenplus1 +1
20:19 tenplus1 hi sfan
20:20 sfan5 players using these kinds of mobile apps are lower-quality which is why they award less "points"
20:20 sniper570 joined #minetest-hub
20:20 tumeninodes hehe low quality mobile app kids :P
20:20 sfan5 they are "lower-quality" due to their limited abilities (which are simply do to how controls work on android)
20:21 Fixer sfan5: but your stats show that 90% are lowquality anyway %)
20:22 IhrFussel sfan5, this is kind of racist to say...mobile users are NOT automatically "low quality" how could you even think that?!
20:23 IhrFussel I bet there are mobile users out there that build better than most PC users ever could
20:24 tumeninodes does quality have any relation to popularity? I'm trying to understand the ratings and listing placement method
20:24 sfan5 i wasn't denying that
20:25 Shara I have builds on my server by mobile users while are extremely high quality.
20:25 IhrFussel sfan5, the guest code makes no sense anymore...it sounds silly to say that 50% of players on server X are "guests" ... and I also don't think mobile users SHOULD be called "guests" by default
20:26 Shara Mobile player just seems more likely to mean younger player.
20:27 CWz Shara, ya sure they're mobile?
20:27 sfan5 it's just a fact that the majority of mobile players are low-quality because they are just kids wanting to "play the game" without much regard towards complicated rules, long-term engagements or expert building
20:27 CWz i can't imagine anyone being able to build anything using a mobile device
20:28 sfan5 this applies even more so to players who didn't change the default name given to them
20:28 IhrFussel Younger != less mature
20:28 sfan5 IhrFussel: it means exactly that in the vast majority of cases
20:28 tumeninodes younger = PGI (parental guidance impaired)
20:28 IhrFussel I was once a MOBILE user...and I managed my server via a PHONE ... did that make me younger or dumber?
20:29 Shara CWz: Not sure if you ever noticed him, but the player that comes to mind was Mohawk. He used multicraft to play
20:29 IhrFussel sfan5, the definition of a "guest account" is NOT what Minetest "guest" accounts are...read my 3rd point again in the issue please in case you didn't yet
20:29 sfan5 concering 2: i don't see how this is a problem; concerning 3: the code calls them "guest" because that is what their name used to be
20:30 Shara He built a huge castle, including working mesecons oors and ships
20:30 sfan5 other than the comment in the source code nobody else is calling them "guests"
20:30 Shara doors*
20:30 IhrFussel It doesn't matter what they are called...a guest account is NOT PERSISTENT
20:30 sfan5 are you really complaing about the code comments calling them "guest" instead of "low-quality"?
20:30 IhrFussel But the "guest" accounts on MT servers ARE persistent
20:30 Shara And Fussel, I didn't say younger means anything other than younger. It was an observation.
20:31 Calinou playing 3D games on mobile is, most of the time, a novelty
20:31 Calinou which is why not a lot of serious, mature people do it
20:31 tenplus1 nite folks :P
20:31 Fixer #PCMASTERRACE
20:31 Calinou sometimes I play GZDoom on my phone, it doesn't mean I do that daily
20:31 tenplus1 left #minetest-hub
20:31 sfan5 besides it says guest in quotes for exactly that reason, they are not real guests
20:31 tumeninodes nite 10+1
20:32 Shara sfan5: I think the issue is how much it affects placement on the server list.
20:32 IhrFussel sfan5, you don't get my point...either remove the whole "guest" stuff OR make guest accounts really non-persistent (which will make MOST app users sad since they need to start over each time again)
20:32 sfan5 you don't get my point
20:33 IhrFussel There are THREE points I mention...and I want to see a reply from core devs for all 3 points
20:33 sfan5 "guest" is just how it's called because of historic reasons, nobody is claiming that those are "real" guest account
20:33 Fixer Shara: to play 3d games on phone, you have two be mazohistic enough
20:33 Fixer to be*
20:33 Shara Fixer: In some cases it's the only option people have
20:34 IhrFussel sfan5, calling all players with such prefix names "low-quality" is an insult
20:34 Fixer guest is just for people who forgot to type the name, guest is still a player and penalazing because of legacy "guest" smth is weird
20:34 sfan5 IhrFussel: no, it's a fact
20:34 sfan5 that obviously doesn't apply to all, but the majority of these mobile players
20:35 IhrFussel And low-quality users shouldn't have the same rights as normal users...that is what you want to tell me
20:35 Fixer i never knew we have pcmasterrace kind of server listing
20:36 tumeninodes should be based on popularity, would make more sense wouldn't it?
20:36 sfan5 the sorting is supposed to find high-quality servers with high-quality players, "all players are equal" is not supposed to apply
20:36 IhrFussel sfan5, face the fact that MT is essentially a home for MOBILE players now...counting 90% of players "low-quality" and "guests" is ridiculous
20:37 Fixer IhrFussel: no it is just gameplay on phone is horrible, and people who use it are young kids without even a proper PC building box houses, it is fact, does not mean they are retarded, they are kids, some of them will be nice builders on PC eventually, some will abandon the game
20:37 tumeninodes that way the high quality players know to just scroll to the bottom ; )
20:37 Shara sfan5: Hmm, since when did which players connect to my server decide its quality?
20:37 sfan5 IhrFussel: this does not apply to ALL mobile players
20:37 Shara My server is lower quality because I don't ban app users?
20:37 sfan5 Shara: not necessarily
20:38 IhrFussel sfan5, it applies to almost all mobile players since barely anyone uses the OFFICIAL app
20:38 sfan5 IhrFussel: no
20:39 Shara Of course it's not. My server's quality is decided by how well I maintain it, how well my team runs it, and whether players show up or not.
20:39 sfan5 the official app is not the only one that allows setting your nickname
20:39 Shara If those players are app users, then so long as they follow my rules (and I ban them if they don't) they are good players.
20:39 Fixer official up is 0.4.15 on fdroid at least btw (trollface)
20:40 IhrFussel I TOTALLY agree with Shara ... you core devs don't seem to fully understand what it means to a server owner who WORKS HARD for his server to hear that his server is "low-quality" JUST because he/she allows mobile users on it!
20:40 Fixer Shara: from PCmasterrace point of view, when you join server with tons of mobile app users you have - 95% ugly as f--- architecture, MOM/DAD/GIVEME1BLOCKOFDIRT/CRYING etc :)
20:41 sfan5 i am not saying your server is low-quality wtf
20:41 Fixer IhrFussel: +1
20:41 IhrFussel YOU DO
20:41 sfan5 nah
20:41 Shara Fussel, in fainress, finding a fair method isn't exactly easy either.
20:41 IhrFussel Because you say if the server has many prefix-users it counts as low-quality
20:41 rubenwardy he's saying that the players are
20:41 Fixer if we have 90% of mobile, most of servers are penalazied anyway
20:41 tumeninodes If it went by popularity, this is where most of those young mobile users will go for 2 reasons, 1. it's popular and 2. it's at the top of the list and easiest & quickest choice, the higher quality, better maintained servers would be further down, this is where the higher quality players will go because they will have the patience to scroll down
20:41 sfan5 Fixer: it still doesn't apply to ALL mobile players
20:41 rubenwardy oh, I guess that's a point
20:42 Shara tumeninodes: that doesn't work in practice.
20:42 Fixer sfan5: yeah, but server itself can be good, yet it penalazied, because ... mobile.
20:42 twoelk sfan5 the term guests is indeed a historic term in minetest - so historic that it is totaly out of date with the current quality of mobile apps and players as far as I have observed
20:42 Shara I can get about ten players online, all well established PC players.. and my server is up in the top 10 or top 5.. then the app users flood in
20:43 IhrFussel You essentially FORCE server owners to add that stupid regex to lock out mobile users with those apps in order for their server to have a chance to get a HIGHER RANK in the list
20:43 sfan5 Fixer: which makes perfect sense as you described yourself
20:43 Fixer sfan5: #PCMASTERRACE
20:43 Fixer #LINUXMASTERRACE
20:43 sfan5 a servers quality is not solely determined by the players, but they play an important role
20:44 Fixer i have no idea we had that kind of sorting, /scrolls down
20:44 Shara It's also normal for the app users to be fairly quiet
20:44 Shara So they don't exactly cause problems in chat
20:44 IhrFussel And you say a player's build/play quality can be determined from the player name
20:44 sfan5 the player name gives a hint yes
20:44 Fixer Shara: they do
20:44 IhrFussel I diagree with that...the name does NOT tell you ANYTHING about the person behind it
20:44 Fixer Shara: just go to Hometown :)
20:45 tumeninodes Shara, if your server is within the top 10 it is susceptible to those users
20:45 Fixer Shara: big kindergarten
20:45 Shara Fixer: hometown might need some more moderators then?
20:45 twoelk can't the impact guest-like accounts have on the rating be simply lowered somewhat?
20:45 Fixer Shara: they allow roleplay though iirc
20:45 Fixer and if it is allowed... chat is ----ed
20:46 Shara Yea, well, I won't spend long on servers with that mommy/daddy stuff
20:46 Shara And if you choose to.. well, you choose to.
20:46 IhrFussel How about you give "guests/low-quality users" at least 4/8 points instead of 1/8 ... that would be an idea
20:46 tumeninodes why mommy?
20:46 Fixer tumeninodes: MOM
20:46 sfan5 IhrFussel: are you saying Scudder713 is as likely as Pie-jacker to become a long-term player on my server who builds good looking buildings?
20:46 tumeninodes hehe
20:46 Shara "who will be my mommy" "can i be baby" "blahblahblah"
20:46 sfan5 protip: if you say yes you're wrong
20:46 Shara ANd other nonsense.
20:47 sfan5 before you answer "but you don't know for sure": it's not about that, it's about probability
20:47 IhrFussel sfan5, are you REALLY trying to see if the player will like your server and play regularly on it or not JUST from the player name???
20:47 sfan5 yes because that is how statistics and correlation works
20:47 Shara sfan5: All I will say is take a moment to look at the list of people in this channel... sniper there, with his three numbers and all, is the only person to date that I have allowed to host a public server for me.
20:48 sfan5 Shara: his name doesn't match the regex
20:48 Fixer sfan5: or do other way, add capability to disallow conecting of mobile clients to server, and sort list just by players, server owners of PRO servers will just ban android/whatever %)
20:48 Shara Name + three numbers seems to be the app pattern though?
20:48 Fixer Hometown Pro (tm)(r), featuring PC players only, 21+
20:48 sfan5 Uppercase name plus 3-4 numbers
20:48 Fixer Sadie
20:48 sfan5 Fixer: it's not elitism, it's quality control
20:49 Shara It would be quality control if you were rating players perhaps, not when you are rating servers
20:49 sfan5 it might make sense to penalize servers for ""mobile guests"" less, but removing this restriction entirely is just stupid
20:50 Shara Well, as I said earlier, I'm not complteely against so much movement in the server list
20:50 Shara completely*
20:50 Shara Because it does help more servers get some time at the top.
20:50 rubenwardy how many guest names tend to be productive, and how many tend to wander around doing nothing?
20:50 tumeninodes I'm gonna host a 21+ server, you have to be intoxicated to play :P drunktest
20:51 Shara At a glance, I only see 21 servers right now that have 5 or more players connected anyway...
20:51 IhrFussel Such extreme jumps are too much ... rubenwardy you cannot simply say "oh this player has a predetermined name it will not stay or build well" ... that is not how it works...maybe in STATSISTICS but not in real-performance
20:51 Fixer sfan5: but is it really working? (that algorithm), i wonder how it looks with and without it
20:52 rubenwardy IhrFussel, that is literally how probability works though
20:52 sfan5 Fixer: how do you determine whether it "works"?
20:52 Shara One danger(?) if you change it, is that only servers that allow and support very high numbers of players will ever be able to get to the top
20:52 Fixer sfan5: compare list with penalization and without
20:52 rubenwardy I should probably not get involved
20:52 sfan5 and how do you see whether it "works"?
20:52 sfan5 one example btw: just test, 30players but pretty low on the list
20:53 IhrFussel rubenwardy, you shouldn't use probability in the server list or AT LEAST make the difference smaller...like I said I'd be happy if the penalty was 4/8 instead of 1/8
20:53 Fixer sfan5: my theory is, there are 90% of mobile, they will outwheight 10% anyway even with 4/8 1/8 thing
20:53 sfan5 Fixer: that's true
20:53 sfan5 it's not about ignoring mobile
20:53 sfan5 it's about giving then less weight
20:54 sfan5 them*
20:54 Shara I've actually seen situations where my two servers have been in the top three together, with both around the 18 players online mark. But servers that get 30 players aren't necessarily better than mine. They just simply allow more players.
20:54 Shara But a server that never has more than 1 or 2 players? Well yes, it's safe to assume that's not as good as any that often have 10+...
20:55 Fixer sfan5: you may as well penalaze those servers without passwords, those are evil :trollface:
20:55 Shara Just that at some point the number of players may stop being an indication of server quality completely.
20:56 Fixer here is part of code: https://github.com/minetest/master​-server/blob/master/server.py#L295
20:56 Fixer it is damn complicated
20:56 rubenwardy this tool tells you why you get a score: https://gist.github.com/rube​nwardy/6d6882db0cbe1b5b24be
20:56 * twoelk knows quite a few wonderfull servers with normaly only few players online at the same time
20:56 Fixer f---
20:56 rubenwardy it's missing the guest -> [A-Z][a-z]+ change though
20:57 Fixer rubenwardy: python3 compatible?
20:57 sfan5 rubenwardy: the regex is more complicated than that
20:57 rubenwardy yes
20:57 rubenwardy sfan5, I guessed, it was more pseudocode
20:58 rubenwardy updated that script to include the guest -> Aaaaa123 change
20:59 Fixer ckkk
20:59 rubenwardy updated again
20:59 Fixer python is not in win path?
21:00 Fixer rubenwardy: AttributeError: module 'urllib' has no attribute 'urlopen'
21:00 rubenwardy #windows
21:00 Fixer #yes
21:00 Fixer rubenwardy: please output the result
21:01 Fixer rubenwardy: to pastebin
21:01 sfan5 Fixer: the script needs python 2
21:01 Fixer ckit, just run the script and show us (somebody)
21:02 Fixer also, iirc, some distros already dropping python2 support
21:02 rubenwardy huh
21:02 rubenwardy I swear I wrote it in python3
21:02 Fixer poettering friendly distros
21:02 rubenwardy oh well
21:02 Fixer rubenwardy: pastebin.com
21:03 rubenwardy https://gist.github.com/rubenwardy​/4414c8553dda2857f4b0c98e2e9b55f4
21:03 rubenwardy Fixer ^
21:04 Fixer yay
21:04 Fixer rubenwardy: thanks
21:04 rubenwardy it's odd that the sorting is slightly off
21:04 rubenwardy I just checked, and I'm using the same algorithm
21:04 rubenwardy maybe a rounding issue
21:04 sfan5 the server list uses python3
21:04 sfan5 maybe that makes a difference
21:05 sfan5 >penalty -0
21:05 sfan5 what
21:05 rubenwardy lol
21:05 sfan5 rubenwardy: your script is inaccurate since 1/8 == 0 in py2
21:05 Fixer lol
21:10 rubenwardy ok, updated to python 3
21:11 rubenwardy updated gist above
21:11 rubenwardy updated source cod
21:11 Fixer a.txt one?
21:11 rubenwardy yeah
21:11 rubenwardy both gists are now updated
21:11 rubenwardy note the a.txt one has more snippets below
21:12 Fixer just test is protector hell
21:12 sfan5 rubenwardy: shouldn't it contain guest stuff in b_pen.txt too?
21:12 rubenwardy guests are counted as penalties
21:12 rubenwardy but just less adding
21:12 rubenwardy hmmmm
21:13 sfan5 i think your script is still off somehow
21:13 sfan5 sorting doesn't match, might just be changes in the meantime tho
21:14 rubenwardy updated with guest penalty reporting
21:16 rubenwardy I'm scrolling down the list my script made, and I can't see any scores out of order
21:16 Fixer interesting
21:16 rubenwardy the order of that list is the one the server gives
21:16 rubenwardy I don't sort it
21:16 Fixer so IFS (IhrFussel's Server) is more PCMASTERRACE friendly right now?
21:16 Fixer and just test...
21:16 Fixer and free pizza
21:17 sfan5 "penalty -0.875 guests" means there was a single guest, right?
21:17 rubenwardy if that's 7/8, yes
21:17 sfan5 it is
21:17 rubenwardy !math calc 7/8
21:17 ShadowBot rubenwardy: 0.875
21:17 rubenwardy then year
21:17 rubenwardy *yeah
21:18 IhrFussel Right now I can confirm that only 1 player is connected via mobile on my server...but try it with HT
21:25 IhrFussel Again: My main problem is that servers that suddenly get many mobile users with such prefix names, are PUNISHED for something they cannot control or decide...right now the server list depends largely on RANDOMNESS
21:25 IhrFussel I'm not sure if that's the goal
21:25 sfan5 wrong
21:26 sfan5 the single most important factor is amount of players right now
21:26 sfan5 if lots of ""mobile guests"" join your server will still go up
21:26 IhrFussel But a "guest" player will not get the full score in the server list which is my point
21:28 IhrFussel And a few "guest" players vs a few "normal" players will bring the server score down nonetheless
21:29 IhrFussel You PUNISH the server owners for THAT
21:29 IhrFussel For allowing more mobile clients with prefix names
21:30 sfan5 essentially yes
21:30 sfan5 but just because you allow mobile clients doesn't mean your server can't ever get to the top
21:35 IhrFussel sfan5, you STILL punish the server owners for it...and you punish them wayy too much, that's why I suggested to lower the penalty at least if you are too stubborn to completely remove it and see mobile users the same as PC users
21:36 sfan5 like i said lowering the penalty can be discussed
21:36 Fixer rubenwardy: script is working now on python 3.5
21:38 IhrFussel I edited my issue comment to include that: https://github.com/minetes​t/master-server/issues/17
21:38 Fixer free pizza server o.O
21:39 Fixer just test o.O
21:39 sfan5 rubenwardy: btw the regex in your script will need another minor update
21:41 IhrFussel Changed issue title too
21:47 Fixer free pizza spawn is horribly slow
21:52 Fixer https://i.imgur.com/QEJEWOz.png
21:52 Fixer kekeke
21:52 Fixer (maybe)
21:57 rubenwardy sfan5, updated :)
21:57 sfan5 oh it logs that publicly, nice
22:05 Fixer sfan5: anticheat warnings?
22:06 Fixer are those built in?
22:06 sfan5 no
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