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IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2017-09-01

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:09 rdococ hi
00:32 rdococ hi benrob0329.
00:59 rdococ ...
01:00 rdococ people still interested in my status effects mod?
01:15 rdococ hi rubenwardy
01:23 DI3HARD139 joined #minetest-hub
01:45 Grandolf_ joined #minetest-hub
02:37 tumeninodes joined #minetest-hub
02:39 tumeninodes just wanted to drop this here... gaming at 16k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Toft6fMvByA hmmm, maybe time for a 2d mortgage :D
02:40 * tumeninodes has left the building...
02:40 tumeninodes left #minetest-hub
05:43 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
06:09 sniper570 joined #minetest-hub
06:41 rdococ yey
06:54 lisac joined #minetest-hub
07:03 CWz joined #minetest-hub
07:20 xerox123 joined #minetest-hub
07:22 rdococ hm
07:22 rdococ Should I add potion bottles to the status effects mod, too, or a separate mod which has it as a dependency?
07:55 nerzhul joined #minetest-hub
08:28 tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub
08:28 tenplus1 hi folks
08:28 rdococ hi
08:28 rdococ Should I add potion bottles to the status effects mod, too, or a separate mod which has it as a dependency?
08:28 tenplus1 o/ rdococ
08:28 tenplus1 use built-in vessels to craft potions
08:29 rdococ built-in vessels?
08:30 tenplus1 default game has vessels already in there (glass, bottle, steel bottle)
08:31 rdococ ahh
08:33 rdococ hm
08:34 rdococ tenplus1: what mod, though?
08:34 tenplus1 vessels
08:34 rdococ ah
08:35 rdococ lol, missed that
08:35 tenplus1 vessels:drinking_glass , vessels:glass_bottle , vessels:steel_bottle
08:39 nerzhul hey guyz, the mod channel API is now complete, it just need some security about flooding but it can be added later. It's not merged yet
08:39 rdococ mod channel?
08:40 tenplus1 hi nrz, how'd you mean mod channel api ?
08:40 rdococ can it make pizza ?
08:40 nerzhul tenplus1, yes
08:41 nerzhul rdococ, communication channel between CSM and SSM, and between CSM clients
08:41 tenplus1 what's it do ?
08:41 tenplus1 ohh
08:41 rdococ ah
08:41 nerzhul it works in broadcast mode, but SSM mods cannot talk to other SSM mods
08:41 nerzhul same for cleint
08:42 nerzhul if a local server mod send a message, other mods on the server doesn't receive the message, they doesn't need
08:42 rdococ > they doesn't need
08:42 nerzhul but you can add channels, and communicate on this channel with other subscriber
08:43 tenplus1 like global vars ?
08:44 nerzhul example usage, you play with a friend, on another PC, you have a mod to detect mobs around you, the two players, when a new mob is detected in one computer, a message is sent to a communication channel and the other player receive the message and show a message in chat containing mob type and coordiante to fight
08:44 nerzhul it's pure CSM usage
08:44 nerzhul no serveer mod, just communication between the two CSM mods using server
08:45 tenplus1 hrm, sounds com-licatec
08:45 tenplus1 *complicated
08:45 nerzhul non
08:45 nerzhul no
08:45 nerzhul it's just limited by imagination
08:45 nerzhul it's used in all popular RPG
08:45 nerzhul it permits to synchronize boss states, send notifications or player positions in PVP areas, etc
08:46 tenplus1 would have to see it in use
08:46 rdococ makes sense, I guess
08:47 nerzhul yes, it will be a new practice, that + the Hud CSM PR merged permits to really enhance CSM experience without involving the server
08:47 nerzhul another controversial case
08:47 tenplus1 so long as it doesnt promote cheating in csm
08:47 rdococ controversy! my favorite
08:48 nerzhul oredetect mod subscribe to communication channel and when oredetect finds diamond, a notification is sent to subsribers and they receive a chat notification about diamond position :D
08:48 nerzhul i know oredetect is controversial but it's more representative of the current CSM mod channels possibilities :p
08:48 nerzhul all of that is done without involving server, except for routing messages
08:49 rdococ lol
08:56 nerzhul i added a scheme https://github.com/nerzhul/minetest​/blob/fee2380dfb61c73a1289c5f8792d4​2a91ea4699e/doc/channel%20mods.png
08:56 nerzhul it will be pushed to doc/ when merged
08:56 nerzhul https://raw.githubusercontent.com/nerz​hul/minetest/fee2380dfb61c73a1289c5f87​92d42a91ea4699e/doc/channel%20mods.png
09:02 IhrFussel joined #minetest-hub
09:02 tenplus1 hi fussel
09:02 IhrFussel Hello guys, can someone explain to me the definition of the parameters in this short form for register_spawn() in mobs redo? mobs:register_spawn("zombies:crawler", {"default:gravel","default:dirt_with_grass"},15, 0, 70, 10, 14000, false)
09:03 tenplus1 https://github.com/tenplus1/mob​s_redo/blob/master/api.txt#L161
09:04 tenplus1 api.txt file explaining parameters
09:04 IhrFussel There is also another format to write it (option = value) and I understand it but I have no clue about this shorthand form
09:04 tenplus1 mobs:register_spawn was the original simple_mobs function which then moved to mobs:spawn_specific and finally onto the final mobs:spawn for simplicity
09:05 tenplus1 mobs:register_spawn(name, nodes, max_light, min_light, chance, active_object_count, max_height, day_toggle)
09:07 IhrFussel What about neighbors? Those don't seem to exist in that example o.o
09:07 tenplus1 that's where spawn_specific came into it, to allow more accurate spawning
09:08 IhrFussel Will the API just skip neighbors if there is no 2nd table after nodes?
09:09 tenplus1 if neighbors is set to nil then yes, it is ignored
09:09 IhrFussel I see no nil in the definition above o.o
09:09 tenplus1 for register_spawn the default neighbors is "air"
09:10 tenplus1 but like I said, that's an old function from simple_mobs days
09:10 IhrFussel Ah so it always adds air as neighbors when not specified alright thanks
09:10 tenplus1 if you want to spawn a mob then use the newer  mobs:spawn(def)
09:10 rdococ hm
09:10 tenplus1 it's a lot easier to use and read in code
09:10 rdococ currently, my status effects mod adds the function minetest.register_effect
09:11 IhrFussel I probably don't use the newest mobs redo version so register_spawn() still works
09:11 tenplus1 how old is your version of mobs redo as mobs:spawn was added last year
09:12 tenplus1 i look forward toreading your code rdococ
09:12 IhrFussel From a few months ago I think...so register_spawn() is just a legacy function?
09:12 tenplus1 yes, register_spawn is the original simple_mobs function from 4 years ago :P
09:12 tenplus1 mobs redo has since added more specific spawning functions... so please use mobs:spawn() if possible
09:12 IhrFussel But all mobs mods I have use it
09:13 tenplus1 it'll stillwork, but as I said, you get a more specific mob spawning check with the new one
09:14 tenplus1 https://github.com/tenplus1/mobs_a​nimal/blob/master/warthog.lua#L65
09:14 IhrFussel Are there any differences (apart from better options/readability)?
09:14 tenplus1 you get access to more features
09:14 rdococ hm
09:14 IhrFussel But no performance gains?
09:14 rdococ should I change minetest.*_effect to effects:*?
09:14 rdococ or effects.*, maybe
09:15 tenplus1 rdococ: whichever is easier to read and remember :)
09:15 rdococ well, there's mobs:spawn(), so idk
09:15 IhrFussel mods generally use modname.tablename
09:15 IhrFussel Or function name
09:16 IhrFussel Not even sure if you can simply add a minetest.* function in a mod o.o
09:17 tenplus1 fussel, you could say using it gives better performance as spawning a cow on grass next to air looks up many nodes, whereas spawning same cow on grass next to group:grass has to look up less
09:17 tenplus1 it all depends on the spawning definition
09:17 rdococ IhrFussel: yeah, you can modify the minetest table
09:18 IhrFussel tenplus1, oh so neighbors improves the function like ABMs?
09:18 IhrFussel I guess it is an ABM
09:20 tenplus1 all the mob spawning functions in the end creates an abm to do the job, so yes.. it helps improve the overall abm
09:20 IhrFussel tenplus1, when is "night" per mobs definition?
09:22 tenplus1 minetest.get_timeofday() * 24000 = 24 hour time...  day time is >4500 and <19500
09:22 tenplus1 basically when dun first comes over the horizon to when it goes down on the other side :)
09:23 IhrFussel OK so night starts at 19:50
09:23 tenplus1 yeah, as soon as sun is gone...
09:23 IhrFussel I need that exact time cause my server has events based on ingame time
09:24 tenplus1 I pasted exact time above
09:24 tenplus1 minetest.get_timeofday() * 24000 = 24 hour time...  day time is >4500 and <19500
09:24 IhrFussel I know, I just told the reason why I need the exact time :P
09:24 tenplus1 ah
09:25 IhrFussel So if I set day_toggle = false I can ommit min/max_light correct?
09:25 tenplus1 it still checks for min/max light even then...  just incase mob spawns right under a torch or something if it's meant to be nighttime only
09:25 tenplus1 or in a shadow under cliff if it's meant to be daytime only
09:26 IhrFussel What's the max light at night in MT? Without light sources
09:26 tenplus1 0
09:26 IhrFussel Really? That's the max? o.o
09:26 tenplus1 at night with no light around, it should return 0
09:26 tenplus1 lemmie check
09:26 IhrFussel I thought 0 would be black
09:28 IhrFussel So normal daytime is 14??
09:28 IhrFussel With no shadows*
09:28 tenplus1 sorry, my bad... it's 2
09:28 rdococ correct me if I'm wrong, but night time on the surface is brighter than in an enclosed cave with no light sources
09:28 tenplus1 2 in the open air and 0 underground
09:29 IhrFussel Thanks =) so if I set it to 3 it will still only trigger in the dark
09:29 rdococ of course, when you get high enough, minetest seems to stop trying to calculate shadows
09:30 tenplus1 so at night time in the open air, min_light = 2
09:31 IhrFussel min_light = 0, max_light = 3, < should work too or not?
09:31 tenplus1 yeah that'd work fine
09:31 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
09:31 tenplus1 hi Megaf
09:32 tenplus1 if you want mobs to spawn in absolute darkness then 0... in open air 2
09:32 tenplus1 so many settings for specific spawning :P
09:32 IhrFussel I want them top spawn in everything that's considered dark
09:32 Megaf Hello there
09:33 IhrFussel But I don't know how high darkness can get...I guess 5 is maybe still dark?
09:33 tenplus1 depends on mob tolerance
09:33 tenplus1 if it is damaged by light anything below mid-point is fine...  7
09:33 rdococ eks....PERIMENT!
09:33 tenplus1 ?
09:33 IhrFussel So 7 means "getting bright"?
09:34 tenplus1 light levels 0 - 14...  7 is midway so anything that hates light prolly wouldnt tolerate anything above that
09:34 tenplus1 and too high would hurt
09:35 rdococ I modified my status effects mod to use a separate table, effects.
09:35 rdococ e.g. effects.apply(minetest.get_p​layer_by_name("IhrFussel"), "fast", 30)
09:35 tenplus1 kewl
09:35 IhrFussel Yes but in terms of engine daytime...I wonder at what level the sky reaches light level 7
09:36 tenplus1 lemmie check
09:36 IhrFussel At what time*
09:36 rdococ I like how new worlds start at sunrise now :P
09:37 tenplus1 testing
09:37 rdococ Light levels are in the node of the beholder.
09:37 IhrFussel rdococ, someone complained about it, cause they said they set the time_speed to 0 so it gets never bright or something like that
09:37 rdococ :P
09:37 rdococ IhrFussel: why don't they just /time? that's what I do.
09:38 tenplus1 exactly at 5320 does light level reach 7 on surface
09:38 IhrFussel Tell them (the complaint is on github)
09:38 rdococ lol, srs?
09:41 IhrFussel tenplus1, light_damage is affected by mob_difficulty or not?
09:42 tenplus1 and at night time @ 18579 it hits 7 light also
09:42 IhrFussel I mean difficulty 2.0 with damage = 2 means damage = 4
09:42 IhrFussel Also thanks for looking it up =)
09:42 rdococ wait
09:42 tenplus1 difficulty only affects mob health and damage done to player
09:42 tenplus1 if it dies in the light then that part will be same...
09:42 tenplus1 will just take longer with higher health
09:43 rdococ https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1997
09:43 IhrFussel Ok I see :P
09:44 tenplus1 also I've added an immune_to table that lets you mess with players by having certain items inflict specific damage or heal a mob when struck
09:44 tenplus1 e.g.  oerkki can be healed by 10 health when hit by gold lumps, wooden swords deal 0 damage
09:48 rdococ yey
09:50 IhrFussel Sounds cool :) tenplus1 my zombies take no damage from light...it's 09:00 now and I set light-damage to 2
09:50 tenplus1 I like the idea of a god killer sword (yeah, wonder woman reference) that hurts normal players like diamond sword, but 1-hit -kills mob bosses in 1 hit
09:50 Calinou hi
09:50 IhrFussel Does day_toggle false disable light damage?
09:50 tenplus1 light damage in mobs is >12
09:51 tenplus1 hi Cal
09:51 IhrFussel Ohh
09:51 tenplus1 direct light only
09:52 IhrFussel I surrounded them with meselamps...still no damage
09:52 tenplus1 light damage only occurs in natural daylight, so mob has to be above ground during daytime hours in a light level >12
09:52 tenplus1 natural light is the key
09:52 tenplus1 :P
09:53 tenplus1 I *could* change it so that normal light affects them to if bright enough ?
09:54 tenplus1 what does everyone think ?
09:55 IhrFussel Makes sense to me...it#s no real difference between sunlight and lightbulbs (except for the UV)
09:55 tenplus1 so mob light damage is changed to any light in general > 12
09:56 IhrFussel That will also make sure monsters die in populated areas where players build stuff and don't want to be disturbed by monsters
09:58 tenplus1 k, git page updated
10:02 rdococ but UV makes sense to damage mobs, especially undead ones
10:02 IhrFussel tenplus1, also I find it funny that you can tame warthogs BUT if you attack a monster they will attack their owner =P
10:03 rdococ lol
10:03 tenplus1 wait, they do ? checking
10:04 IhrFussel At least in my version they do
10:05 tenplus1 nope, in my version if I have a tamed hog and hit a spuider, the hog goes after the spider
10:06 IhrFussel Any PR for that I can apply to my code?
10:06 Krock joined #minetest-hub
10:06 tenplus1 hi Krock
10:06 Krock hi tenplus1
10:07 Megaf I need to vacuum my DB...
10:08 Fixer joined #minetest-hub
10:08 tenplus1 hi Fixer
10:09 Krock If you clean a vacuum cleaner, are you a vacuum cleaner?
10:09 Krock /music plays
10:10 tenplus1 lol
10:10 rdococ lol
10:11 nerzhul hi Krock  :)
10:11 Fixer yes
10:11 Fixer hi
10:11 rdococ Lately, I've realized that 'you are what you eat'. Because I've always wanted to be Batman, I ate him. I still don't feel like Batman, though.
10:11 rdococ :P
10:14 * tenplus1 is donut man
10:17 * rdococ eats tenplus1
10:17 * rdococ is donut man
10:17 * tenplus1 is eated
10:17 rdococ eated?
10:17 tenplus1 lol
10:17 * rdococ watches a cup of water get drinked
10:20 rdococ https://github.com/rdococ/effects
10:20 Megaf Whats does that do?
10:21 rdococ it's recently been through a fairly large overhaul (replaced minetest.*_effect with effects.*), so it might be buggy
10:21 rdococ had to use the find and replace feature
10:21 rdococ which I do fairly often anyway :P
10:21 rdococ Megaf: status effects
10:21 rdococ fast, slow, heavy, light, float, etc.
10:23 Megaf man I hate most of the modern music. Melody is just messed up and it's so loud very almost non dynamic range.
10:23 tenplus1 +1
10:23 rdococ what would be cool is realistic night vision
10:24 rdococ so if you've been out in the sun, and go into a cave, everything is pitch black... until your eyes adjust
10:24 rdococ that might work as a csm but idk for sure
10:24 tenplus1 would have to change clientside so that all nodes rendered could be in full brightness
10:27 rdococ I also like the idea of being able to place the sun and the moon where-ever
10:28 Megaf Science https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WI6_G1T9KQ (Street Fighter Science) (Sonic Boom Science)
10:28 rdococ doing science to a video game is a bad idea tbh
10:29 tenplus1 nice effects
10:29 * tenplus1 floats around
10:29 rdococ video game logic and physics is completely incompatible with ours, even if it tries to emulate ours
10:29 * rdococ suddenly falls up
10:29 Megaf rdococ, subscribe to that channel and you shall change your mind
10:32 tenplus1 I kinda like the idea of water_source falling when no block beneath them
10:33 rdococ meh
10:33 rdococ we need new water physics
10:33 rdococ not super-ultra-realistic-water-pressure physics, but not minecraft water
10:33 tenplus1 having water spread out in all directions from source isnt too good... but... flowing out from source in a step by step / node by node way getting lower at each step is a good idea
11:03 rdococ lol
11:28 nerzhul rdococ, it sounds interesting and a good candidate for a core side support in a future release with propre client integration in a skill/spell API
11:30 tenplus1 mobs redo api updated with new on_spawn function in mob registry
11:31 Fixer very nice
11:35 CalebDavis joined #minetest-hub
11:36 tenplus1 hi caleb
11:36 tenplus1 bunny.lua has an example, depending where you spawn rabbit depends which texture it uses
11:36 CalebDavis hi ten
11:36 tenplus1 o/
11:38 ThomasMonroe joined #minetest-hub
11:38 tenplus1 hi thomas
11:38 ThomasMonroe hi ten
11:44 cx384 joined #minetest-hub
11:44 tenplus1 hi cx384
11:44 cx384 hi tenplus1 :)
11:50 cx384 What is the best way to recompile minetest if I changed only one file?
11:53 Krock make -j4
11:53 nerzhul make -j750
11:53 Krock or: don't. (if you changed the Lua code)
11:54 cx384 ok thank you
11:55 Krock auto peer_removal_fct = [peer_id, &found](u16 p) {
11:55 Krock wtf
11:55 Jordach joined #minetest-hub
11:56 Krock ah. function definition within a function. seems to be C++11
11:56 nerzhul lambda
11:57 nerzhul it like a function definition yes, it's a std::function<void(u16)> blah blah :p
11:57 nerzhul i don't use it generally, but here it's mandatory to use it :)
11:58 nerzhul i don't see real benefits to use lambda in most cases, but when you need an anonymous callback function on a list iteration (for example) it's nice to use them
11:59 tenplus1 https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/pull/1884 -- closes lid now
11:59 nerzhul the [ ] is mandatory, it captures external attributes to send them to the function
12:00 nerzhul Krock, a little litterature about lambda http://www.cprogramming.com/c+​+11/c++11-lambda-closures.html
12:01 Krock I see. thanks.
12:07 CalebDavis is it possible to controll one bone via code and the rest via animation
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12:09 tenplus1 hi ds
12:09 DS-minetest hi
12:10 DS-minetest 31 seconds, you were slow
12:10 tenplus1 lol, sorry DS, just pushed fix for https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/pull/1884
12:14 tenplus1 Krock: you can re-add the +1 approval :PPPP
12:19 Krock tested?
12:19 tenplus1 yes,w orks fine
12:20 tenplus1 hence the last minute nil checks added :P
12:23 ThomasMonroe ok so im trying to make a new mapgen, but the mountains and hills are somewhat pyramidal, why is that?
12:23 tenplus1 illuminati
12:23 Wayward_One lol
12:24 Wayward_One hi all :)
12:24 tenplus1 hi wayward
12:24 CalebDavis hi Wayward
12:24 Krock /o\
12:26 Krock tenplus1, could you move the   if not open_chests[pn] then return end   check into chest_lid_close? this makes it failsafe when calling in a wrong place in the future
12:27 Krock i.e. it closes the lid if there's something to close instead of throwing an error
12:29 tenplus1 it already does that
12:29 tenplus1 but holdon, lemmie check
12:30 tenplus1 wouldnt that mess up the return and return true inside on_receive_fields
12:32 tenplus1 or does it matter if on_receive_fields returns true or not ?
12:32 Krock that only prevents the rest of the callbacks being called for this formspec event. never mind, let's keep it this way
12:34 Krock but there's the "return true" leftover from where you took the chest closing code
12:34 tenplus1 :)
12:35 nerzhul tenplus1, now i finished the mod channels (just some style cases) i think i will work on my secret project (not the NPC, i need to study various implementation and would use sofar approach with some mobs_redo ideas
12:36 tenplus1 time to enter the lab :P muhahahahahaha
12:36 nerzhul hehe
12:37 tenplus1 the on_spawn function I added just then lets you place bunny eggs and determine wether it's a snow/desert biome bunny or random
13:00 tenplus1 laters all o/
13:00 tenplus1 left #minetest-hub
13:22 ThomasMonroe ok so im trying to make a new mapgen, but the mountains and hills are somewhat pyramidal, why is that?
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13:46 Krock Ooh.. these genious programmers again: https://i.redd.it/37mbebl3p8jz.png
13:47 Grandolf lol
13:54 nerzhul do i forget to link NPM post her ?
13:55 nerzhul just look at those winners NodeJS users https://github.com/npm/npm/issu​es/2049#issuecomment-230134212
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14:13 Fixer fuck firefox
14:13 Fixer FUUCK YOU
14:13 DS-minetest what happened?
14:13 Fixer i had 60 background tabs opened, mem use was 800-2000 mb, now I've reduced it to 30, still this memory eating shit, what the fuck wrong with you firefox?
14:14 nerzhul it keeps it because it thinks you are silly and want you to rage
14:14 Fixer and this fucking lag
14:14 Fixer how fucking browser can lag on i3/i5/i7? seriously? fucking www-monkeys, i hope you eat your shit JS every morning
14:15 nerzhul i3/i5/i7 doesn't mean anything, you can have a i7 with 6 years old age it's just slow
14:15 Fixer no it is not
14:15 nerzhul and also ensure your don't have too many extensions/plugins
14:15 Fixer it is garbage WWW full of JS-shit that will be slow even on core i7 beowulf claster
14:15 nerzhul and having 60 backgrounds tabs is silly, you have pocket to store your pages :p
14:16 Fixer nerzhul: 60 background tabs, and only like 5 active of them, everything else is not even loaded from what I understand
14:16 Fixer nerzhul: firefox does not load tabs itself, you can have 60, but only 5 active are loaded into memory
14:17 Fixer still, fuck 1gb for few active tabs? are you kidding?
14:17 Fixer somewhere around firefox 3X it was much better, and then it went into ape shit
14:17 Fixer mem use skyrocketed
14:17 Jordach Fixer, chrome doesn't use much for me :^)
14:18 Fixer opening fucking youtube FF mem usage skyrockets to 2.3 GB, WTF!?!?!? (bug is opened btw)
14:18 nerzhul comparing FF &nchrome usage on different computers with differents tabs is just wrong
14:18 nerzhul are you using youtube with flash or not
14:19 nerzhul disable all plugins except ad-blocker
14:19 Fixer i can't even use ONE FUCKING FIREFOX TAB ONE 1GB WINDOWS XP MACHINE __
14:19 Fixer to open ONE page
14:19 Fixer win xp used 100mb of ram itself
14:19 nerzhul i have 15 active tabs opened it takes 600 mb ram
14:19 Fixer is 900mb not enough for this crap?
14:19 nerzhul it depend how many pages you read on faceshit
14:20 Fixer also depends what pages are opened
14:20 nerzhul yeah
14:20 nerzhul some JS devs are shit
14:20 nerzhul windows xp is shit too
14:20 Fixer that was IRL example
14:21 nerzhul Windows XP is not real life, hopefuly :D
14:21 nerzhul else we will have many virus :D
14:21 Krock Fixer, Win XP used about 300 MiB, unless you really strip down everything to the most important
14:21 Fixer that shit can't open 1 website on computer with 1GB ram... one tab, Karl/Carl/whatever
14:21 Fixer nerzhul: it is
14:21 Krock if it uses less, virtual RAM might got used
14:21 Fixer nerzhul: XP is widely used
14:22 Fixer nerzhul: it is just example of IRL machine with 1gb ram that literally can't run ONE TAB in FIREFOX
14:22 Fixer it loads for minutes, mem usage tops, cpu usage tops
14:23 Fixer do i need Core i9 for web now?
14:23 Krock no, wait for i11
14:25 Krock Fixer, how about noscript? does it help a bit?
14:25 Fixer nerzhul: win7 64bit machine, firefox - 5tabs loaded (24 unloaded) - 600 mb usage, thats fresh start, when you start do something it skyrockets quickly to 1gb
14:25 Fixer Krock: yes, I have noscript, imagine how much more mem it will use with noscript disabled?
14:26 Fixer I have 8gb of ram, not a problem for me, BUT, if this shit with few tabs goes past 1GB and even lags... WTF
14:27 nerzhul Fixer, use a AMD CPU instead of Intel :D
14:27 nerzhul you use windows, it's the problem
14:27 Fixer i don't mind if you fucking eating my memory, but FUCK STOP LAGGING YOU POS
14:27 Fixer nerzhul: trololo
14:28 Fixer nerzhul: there was time when Firefox had pretty decent mem usage, it still lagged as hell, but now it is eating my mem and lags as fuck (there were some visible improvements not long ago though)
14:28 Krock i.e. pre-HTML5
14:30 Jordach you mean to say HTML5 requires JS to be useable and requires godly amounts of bloated crap?
14:30 Fixer i browsed the web on IE on WinNT4 machine with fuck knows what specs, today firefox with 1tab on 1GB ram machine with XP loads insanely slower compared to my times
14:30 Fixer Jordach: noscrip, fuck js, fuck telemetry, fuck ads
14:30 Krock Jordach, not direct in connection with JS but it surely needs more resources than without
14:30 Fixer t
14:31 Jordach Fixer, the problem is the JS frameworks
14:31 Jordach (no really)
14:31 Jordach they're all so bad and have such performance problems
14:31 Krock node_modules
14:31 Fixer here is interesting example of this WEB-JS cancer: https://weather.com
14:31 Krock been many times on r/ProgrammerHumor for being heavy
14:31 Jordach (who writes code on a fucking high end PC for end users with weaker machines)
14:32 Fixer Jordach: like everybody?
14:32 Fixer Jordach: and then normies with 400 usd craptops load that POS website
14:32 Fixer profit
14:33 Jordach Fixer, might have been a redditard with a ducky mech and high end PC claiming it's not much#
14:33 Jordach not forgetting the Senn HD 600/800
14:33 Jordach and DAC/AMP of choice
14:36 Jordach and they're also the same middle / upper class twats who then go: it's not hard to get a job / college (everything paid for by their parents)
14:41 nerzhul Krock, weather.com loads instanly on my FF
14:42 nerzhul and i'm on a shit i3 with 5 years old age at work
14:42 nerzhul with 13 tabs, Clion , Pycharm, irc, thunderbird with 15k mails opened and 4GB memory on the PC
14:42 nerzhul but i have a archlinux
14:42 Krock instant loading here too but half of the content isn't displayed due noscript
14:42 nerzhul maybe, i have ublock origin :p
15:43 Calinou hi
15:43 Calinou <Jordach> Fixer, the problem is the JS frameworks
15:43 Calinou today's JS frameworks perform well on desktop; mobile is another thing
15:48 Fixer said person with i7 and 64gb of ram, ssd and whatever
15:51 rdococ "This computer has 1 TB OF RAM!"
15:52 rubenwardy I got told a phone had  4GB of memory
15:52 rubenwardy turned out that was storage
15:52 rdococ lol
15:52 rubenwardy it had 512MB
15:52 rubenwardy stupid shop assistant
15:53 rubenwardy now I buy phones separately from contracts
15:57 sofar ^
15:59 rdococ btw, did you try my status effects mod yet?
16:00 red-001 oh lol the guy that designed the anticheat went for the "I was just trolling" copout
16:00 red-001 anticheat mod*
16:04 rdococ lol
16:06 red-001 that's like the oldest trick in the book
16:07 Calinou Fixer: if you compare eg. Vue.js to vanilla JavaScript, the slowdown isn't huge
16:07 Calinou rubenwardy: buying phones on contract is stupid in France
16:07 Calinou :P
16:07 rdococ lol
16:07 benrob0329 Wouldn't that be an anti-anticheat mod?
16:08 rubenwardy pretty standard in the UK, Calinou
16:08 Calinou rnd is a special guy, I know him from another game since like 2010
16:08 rubenwardy basically everyone except tech-y people do it
16:08 Calinou he made a Sauerbraten map with weird tricks/glitches
16:08 Calinou :P
16:08 rdococ much confusion will occur if someone wants to create a vanilla extract mod :P
16:09 benrob0329 Also, I hate sites that need JS for basic functionality
16:09 Calinou "This all explains it - this kind of ignorant, fake expert, lazy attitude = "Trump 2020!" :)"
16:09 red-001 truly saying you where just trolling when you clearly weren't is the greatest troll
16:09 Calinou honestly, rnd's attitude is warn-worthy here
16:09 Calinou intentional trolling is definitely not permitted
16:09 rdococ rnd?
16:09 red-001 I somehow doubt he was trolling
16:09 red-001 I'm pretty sure this is just a cop-out
16:10 Calinou the guy who made the anticheat mod
16:10 rdococ meh. I think anticheat should only be enabled if the player doesn't have fly.
16:11 Fixer Firefox 57 drops support for all legacy add-ons, including Tab Mix Plus. From Firefox 57 onwards, Firefox will not install Tab Mix Plus. It is currently unclear when Tab Mix Plus as a WebExtension will be ready.
16:14 benrob0329 Fixer: it also requires PulseAudio
16:15 Fixer what you say?
16:15 red-001 https://i.imgur.com/7XYz9Fg.jpg
16:17 benrob0329 Fixer: basically no one wanted to maintain the Alsa backend, so rather than using something like OpenAL (like every other program in twenty friggen seventeen) they instead make Pulseaudio a hard dependency
16:18 Fixer benrob0329: i said nothing about pulseaudio, openal, or alsa
16:18 benrob0329 Mozilla: making unnecessary breakage since 199*
16:18 benrob0329 Fixer: it becomes a hard dep in 57
16:19 rubenwardy but muh progress
16:19 benrob0329 Like Pulse breaking my audio setup, and overcomplicating everything?
16:19 sofar I hate to poop your party, but I kinda like the features that PA brings
16:19 benrob0329 And constantly changing the audio levels??
16:20 benrob0329 sofar: then use it, but it shouldn't be required
16:20 sofar so mozilla devs should be required to maintain 2 audio stacks?
16:20 sofar how is that logical?
16:20 Calinou rdococ: if you have fly but not noclip, it is possible to noclip using cheats
16:20 rdococ Calinou: true
16:21 benrob0329 No, they should use a standard audio lib instead of requireing a whole new server
16:21 rdococ Calinou: but I think stopping people without fly from flying is more of a priority
16:21 Calinou preventing noclipping is *very* important
16:21 Calinou people can break in anyone's house
16:21 Calinou they can escape fights during PvP, etc
16:21 Calinou it's a good thing it never was possible in Minecraft
16:22 benrob0329 My audio configuration is very simple, I do most things in hardware mixing
16:22 benrob0329 I don't want, nor do I need any extra audio levels to worry about fixing every 5 minutes
16:23 benrob0329 Nor do I need Pulse to pull another distort all input sound on me again while recording
16:23 Calinou not sure if OpenAL (Soft) is suited to everything
16:23 Calinou Godot doesn't use it, for example
16:23 Calinou also, I did have issues with PulseAudio changing the audio volumes randomly, but I longer have that issue
16:24 Calinou USB audio is still messy though… I bought an analog headset *because* of Linux and PulseAudio
16:24 Calinou but now I'm on Windows, heh
16:24 benrob0329 Pulse is good for some, and not others
16:24 benrob0329 that's why we have libraries that can use both
16:25 sofar too much choice isn't always better in the long run, there's a cost to it
16:25 sofar with almost every desktop env under linux using PA, there's really no reason to avoid it
16:25 sofar it's just economics
16:25 rubenwardy Megaf is aiming to do this to Minetest
16:25 rubenwardy well, his fork
16:25 rubenwardy remove a lot of the choice
16:25 sofar openal for minetest is fine btw
16:26 sofar it just has a single audio stream and you get positional audio and cross platform
16:26 rubenwardy true, he's removing db backends and like, I believe
16:26 benrob0329 sofar: I just stated reasons for avoiding it
16:26 sofar mozilla might just want different audio streams to actually go to a different output, for instance
16:26 sofar we do support imho too many obscure backends
16:27 sofar there's a good reason for it, but still
16:27 benrob0329 In a browser? That seems like a strange edge case to piss of a good chunk of your userbase for
16:27 sofar with sqlite and *sql backends now we can probably nuke leveldb and redis at some point
16:28 sofar benrob0329: you're a minority, and your demands are probably the most costly for them, so, economics... it's not personal
16:28 sofar if you really care you have a chance of doing the work yourself
16:29 sofar I mean, if PA support is horribly broken, sure, I'd complain loudly too
16:29 sofar everyone would
16:30 benrob0329 sofar: as I stated before, there ate libraries that have been around for years to solve this problem
16:30 Calinou how well does the PostgreSQL back-end perform in Minetest, compared to Redis?
16:30 Calinou we can nuke LevelDB though (after a 6-month notice or so)
16:30 benrob0329 Also your forgetting the many years of broken Pulse, but did distros pull it and build with alsa? Nope
16:30 Calinou (it's not built-in by default anyway)
16:31 Calinou benrob0329: Pulse's early issues are no longer a thing on even LTS distros, today :P
16:31 benrob0329 Is Pulse mostly fixed nowadays, sure. But its still broken in places and I won't deal with not knowing if my audio is fine or not
16:31 benrob0329 that's a level of pain I won't put up with
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16:33 rdococ I like the idea of being able to move the sun and moon to any celestial position
16:33 rubenwardy but but Redis isn't a database
16:34 rdococ I'd also like to see local celestial body positioning overrides
16:34 rdococ so that a mod could make someone at Z=1000 see a differently positioned sun to someone at Z=-1000
16:35 sofar the whole sky object system could use an overhaul, but that doesn't make much sense
16:36 rdococ seasons, weird orbits, etc. would be cool, though
16:39 rubenwardy I'd prefer for particles to be fixed over that
16:40 rdococ eh, true
16:40 rubenwardy > weather without copious amounts of lag
16:40 benrob0329 rubenwardy: indeed
16:40 rdococ I saw a github issue about the sun and moon thing
16:40 rubenwardy I started doing it, but particles have sooo many features
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16:43 rdococ hm
16:43 rdococ is there a way to remove a line of chat?
16:45 paramat hi Fixer please less swearing :]
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16:48 rdococ yay, humanoid beings!
16:49 benrob0329 Hi RobbieF
16:49 RobbieF hi benrob0329
16:59 rdococ yey
16:59 Calinou anything said on IRC is permanent, although web-based logs can be edited :P
17:08 benrob0329 I should make a bot to redact [off] messages after 5 minutes
17:12 benrob0329 rdococ: Matrix has message redaction
17:13 rdococ [REDACTED]
17:13 rubenwardy ▮▮▮▮▮▮▮▮▮▮▮▮
17:14 rdococ welcome to minetest, where ice solidifies lava
17:14 rubenwardy ice and fire?
17:15 rubenwardy > SAM is the prince who was promised confirmed
17:15 rdococ no, ice and lava
17:15 rdococ it's just... █████ ███████ ██ ███ █ ████ █
17:15 rdococ █████████████ ██ █ ███████
17:17 DS-minetest minetest lava isn't so hot, that's the reason why ice solidifies it. sam can even swim in it
17:17 sofar ice and lava?
17:17 sofar let's assume typical lava at 1000C
17:17 sofar and typical ice at -10C
17:18 rdococ DS-minetest: without dying quickly (in survival)?
17:18 sofar specific heat of lava is ... 0.84 kJ/kg-K
17:18 DS-minetest yes, just eat some apples
17:18 DS-minetest (well, lag can kill you)
17:18 sofar ice is 2.1, water is 4.2 (kJ/kg-K)
17:18 sofar specific weight of lava is 3.1
17:19 rdococ that's because hunger is unrealistic in minetest_game, not because lava is boiling kool-aid
17:19 sofar so by volume, 1m3 would take 0.84 * 3.1 * 1000 to cool down 1K
17:19 sofar 2600 kJ
17:19 DS-minetest rdococ: but even without food, sam can be in lava for some seconds, have you ever tried that?
17:20 DS-minetest sofar: but sources are infinitely big
17:20 sofar 1m3 of ice gives 1kJ prior to melting
17:20 sofar roughly
17:20 rdococ 1m3 of lava somehow expands into multiple times that
17:21 rdococ with just 4m3 of water, you can create infinite water
17:21 sofar but if the ice melts you'd get another 4200 per K of energy
17:21 rdococ why do people apply science to a game where you can infinitely duplicate water
17:21 sofar the total would end up 4200 * 100 + 10 (kJ)
17:22 benrob0329 rdococ: its like deletion in other chat systems
17:22 sofar 4.2 * 100 + 10
17:22 sofar 430 kJ, that is
17:23 sofar err I'm off somewhere there
17:23 rdococ lol
17:24 paramat yeah it's unrealistic, but then 1 node of water cools 1 node of lava, and ice would of course be melted to water
17:24 sofar 541 * 1000 for 1m3 ice to boil off
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17:24 sofar 2600 for lava to cool down 1K
17:24 sofar that results in a lower temperature of the lava by 208K
17:25 sofar assuming the lava is 1000C, it would still be fluid at 792C
17:25 sofar if the lava is 700C, it would solidify at 492C
17:25 rdococ are you still applying science to a game where 4m3 of water can become infinitym3 of water, and a game where you can hold stacks of 99m3 of gold without the weight killing you?
17:25 sofar no
17:25 paramat i made snowblock cool lava, but not snow slab as it's smaller
17:26 sofar I'm taking a theoretical ideal volume of lava and a theoretical ideal volume of ice :)
17:27 rdococ what would be cool is a fully fledged electrical circuit system
17:27 rdococ but idk how I'd do that
17:27 rdococ resistors are weird, man
17:28 sofar I've thought about making a true semiconductor mod
17:28 sofar e.g. P and N materials
17:28 rdococ you could use them in diodes and transistors
17:28 rdococ actually, I think I did make a mod like that
17:28 rdococ it wasn't that good though
17:28 sofar for educational purposes it would be
17:29 rdococ I meant that the code was messy
17:29 sofar link to source?
17:30 rdococ github.com/rdococ/silicons I think
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17:35 sofar might be worth redoing and fixing
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17:39 CWz #modernstoneagefamilly
17:40 CWz Really miss that show growing up
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17:44 rdococ yey
17:45 * rdococ hugs a hug
17:46 benrob0329 rdococ: wot
17:46 benrob0329 How *universe explodes*
17:47 rdococ lol
17:49 rdococ yay
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19:04 rdococ https://rdococ.github.io/ <- I'm creating a WEBSITE!
19:11 bigfoot547 Oh muh gaws
19:11 bigfoot547 Oh muh gawd
19:11 rubenwardy oh, nice
19:11 bigfoot547 me too: https://bigfoot547.github.io/
19:11 rubenwardy very minimalistic
19:11 rdococ lol
19:12 bigfoot547 I spent very time on the sitemap lol, it's handwritten: https://bigfoot547.github.io/sitemap.html
19:12 rubenwardy you should look into Jekyll
19:13 bigfoot547 Ehh
19:13 rubenwardy no need to hand make sitemaps
19:13 bigfoot547 I think that website generators are cheating :3
19:13 rubenwardy It's not a generator really
19:13 rubenwardy it's not like it's WYSIWYG
19:16 IhrFussel Just happened again: 27/35 on my server but they see "too many users"
19:16 IhrFussel Either someone really abuses that packet sniff bug or the engine has a big issue
19:17 Krock too many reserved slots?
19:18 IhrFussel I thought reserved slots do NOT count as regular slots
19:18 Fixer benrob0329: you can recompile FF to use alsa iirc
19:18 IhrFussel Or is that only the admin account?
19:20 benrob0329 Fixer: I do, but WebRTC doesn't work then
19:20 rubenwardy I don't think Minetest has reserved slots?
19:20 benrob0329 And, hard dep in 57
19:20 rubenwardy players with the server priv can join anytime they wish
19:20 Fixer lol
19:20 rubenwardy maybe some other privs too
19:28 IhrFussel rubenwardy, Shara had the same problem recently...there were 14/30 players and the others got "too many users"
19:29 IhrFussel Possible (although VERY unlikely) that there were just so many in the connecting phase
19:30 benrob0329 It wouldn't be hard to make a mod for reserved slots though
19:30 IhrFussel The problem is that the servers tell "too many users" too soon it seems
19:34 IhrFussel I can actually check if there were really 8-9 people connecting cause I log each prejoin
19:36 IhrFussel Ok I gotta say it's not impossible anymore...
19:36 IhrFussel I had ~ 10 players connect within 1 minute for the last 20 or so
19:37 IhrFussel Shara, I suggest you to add a minetest.log() in on_prejoinplayer() and see if that explains the "too many users"
19:39 Shara IhrFussel: Why it happens is a minor point. The issue is that it happens.
19:40 Shara Cap of 30, but getting this before server has 20 connected players... shouldn't happen.
19:40 IhrFussel Shara, it happens because there ARE max_users / max_users slots used JUST that many didn't join yet
19:40 Shara I suspected that before you showed me that issue
19:40 IhrFussel A slot is gone as soon as someone connects AFAIK
19:41 IhrFussel Yes that explains it: ~ 15 players were in the loading phase when the issue happened
19:41 IhrFussel On phone loading can take up to 2 minutes
19:42 Shara So I'm basically getting a crazy number of people in prejoin phase who never actually make it into game.
19:42 Shara While players who are perfectly capable of playing simply can't connect
19:42 Shara If you are seeing this, it's my issue too, given both our servers rank fairly highly
19:43 Shara I won't be getting is less than you.
19:43 Shara it*
19:43 IhrFussel Likely...many have their app crashed on them cause it couldn't handle the media, or maybe they thought it's too much to download and closed it..but between connecting and joining a slot is definitely in use
19:43 Shara There really needs to be a better way to handle this
19:43 rdococ why do people use spaces to indent code? tabs ftw
19:43 rubenwardy any servers with high quality coastal cities?
19:44 rubenwardy also any with good subways
19:44 IhrFussel rubenwardy, can you confirm a player slot is in use as soon as someone connects?
19:44 rubenwardy I believe so
19:44 rubenwardy that was talked about recently
19:44 Shara To whatever devs are paying attention: is there no way to auto-disconnect a player who's attempt to join take slonger than x seconds, then hav ea conf setting so server owners can set what is acceptable to them?
19:45 Shara Maybe even scale acceptable connection time based on how far from the player cap a server is
19:46 Shara I don't want to raise the cap on my servers, since I know that's probably about how many players they can handle... but due to this they often refuse players far sooner, and how much sooner is totally unpredictable.
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19:47 IhrFussel Shara, it's the worst when sudden player waves happen...
19:48 Shara It means being too popular can actually kill your ability to take players
19:49 Calinou <benrob0329> It wouldn't be hard to make a mod for reserved slots though
19:49 Calinou there is one
19:50 Calinou also, people who have some kind of moderation privilege can always join a server, even if full
19:50 Calinou *supposedly*
19:50 Calinou (in practice, it didn't work for me)
19:50 Calinou eg. the "ban" privilege, or "server"
19:50 Shara Define "some kind"?
19:50 Shara The account I could always join on was the named admin
19:50 Shara And you can only have one of those set in conf
19:50 Calinou https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4927
19:51 Calinou hmm, this is still open
19:51 CWz i wonder how many users can minetest handle
19:51 Calinou wow, I opened this in December 2016, I had no idea, I thought I did that like in 2015 :P
19:51 Shara Didn't see that before, but instant thumb up from me
19:53 Calinou :)
19:53 cx384 I am working on a mod with which you don't need to take care about in which chest you should put which items anymore. Anyone want to see?
19:54 cx384 bad English x_x
19:56 cx384 https://github.com/cx384/storage_interf​ace/blob/master/screenshot.png?raw=true
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20:01 Raven262 That looks complicated...
20:04 cx384 I think it isn't complicated, because you only have to place the storage interface next to your chests.
20:05 rdococ yay for hugs
20:07 cx384 bye bye
20:08 lisac Calinou, I can see a very very big problem with that kind of reserved priv
20:09 lisac currently server list gives placement punishment for servers with a high maxplayer, right?
20:09 lisac what if server admin just auto granted vip priv to all players?
20:17 Calinou lisac: hmm… it probably wouldn't work on first join
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20:20 Shara Obviously upper limit should not be infinite and should not disregard cap completely.
20:21 Shara I'm just tired of my regular players (and me when I play on a non-admin account) not being able to connect when the server shows something like 17/30
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20:46 Fixer Xhttps://twitter.com/Shitty_Fut​ure/status/882125437945737216
20:47 Calinou Xhttps? is that extra-secure HTTPS?
20:55 rdococ lol
20:55 rdococ xhttps
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20:58 Fixer https://twitter.com/Shitty_Fut​ure/status/834121105468223488
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21:07 paramat "is there no way to auto-disconnect a player who's attempt to join take slonger than x seconds" worth considering, but at busy times do desktop players have their connecting slowed, could it hit the wrong players?
21:08 paramat Calinou's issue is worth considering too
21:08 paramat guh, mobile users causing problems again :D
21:09 * Fixer decided not to swear about mobile
21:09 Fixer also, where is octacian?
21:09 sofar school probably started for him again
21:09 Calinou paramat: media download can take a while
21:10 Calinou it's much faster with a web server set up, but unfortunately, not everyone takes the time to set one up…
21:10 Calinou (I am beginning to think it should be required for servers listed on the list)
21:10 Calinou (it's ok to not have one for LAN/private gameplay, but it ruins the experience on public servers)
21:10 IhrFussel I just found a protection by "mr_Hitler" on my server who built a nazi symbol lol
21:11 Calinou I once was playing Sauerbraten, then I see… "Adolf_Hitler connected from United States"
21:11 Calinou seems legit
21:12 Fixer pfff
21:12 Fixer i've seen Adolf Hitler like week ago or so
21:12 Fixer and he built a nazi themed town*
21:12 IhrFussel His protection was named "Mein Kampf" too
21:12 sofar in ukrain? that doesn't surprise me
21:12 Fixer sofar: nope, USA server $)
21:14 Fixer i'm not sure if it is permitted in USA
21:14 Fixer sofar: in Ukraine there is ban on nazi/communism ideology
21:15 sofar yes, I hear it's particularly effective in the eastern regions
21:15 Fixer Germany has ban on nazi ideology too
21:15 sofar as a dutch person, I'm well aware of the german prohibitions
21:16 sofar apparently, asian travellers to berlin not so much
21:16 sofar https://www.economist.com/blogs/g​ulliver/2017/08/don-t-mention-war
21:18 paramat does connection timeout have a fixed value currently?
21:18 sofar my guess it's based on the OS stack values
21:18 sofar nerzhul probably knows
21:18 Fixer sofar: ukraine has no far right parties in parlament, btw, I hope this does not surprise you too
21:20 sofar not at all. what surprises me is that russia can just shoot down an airplane with dutch and malay folks in east ukrain and take a whole province
21:20 Fixer for some reason neonazi still fascinates some folks around the planet
21:20 Fixer sofar: welcome to russia
21:22 Fixer sofar: i remember that day when they shot down the plane, western investigation said military rocket system went in from Russia, shut down some planes, and then MH17 and then exit to Russia back, question is: who was operator?
21:23 paramat be careful to not confuse the ancient and fine swastika symbol with the specific 3rd reich symbol
21:23 Fixer sofar: and Europe is always buries its head in the sand
21:23 sofar it's a proxy war, russia is responsible
21:24 Fixer Putin feels that Russia is strong and Europe is weak, and he is right, Europe is lets pretend nothing happens lalala, lets send another Shreder to receive money from cleptocracy
21:25 sofar Fixer: to be honest, ukrain really cut itself in the shins by not accepting EU's invitations to cooperate more right before this mess all started
21:25 Fixer Putin started antiwestern war long ago, projects, propaganda, for years, nobody cares
21:25 paramat well, USA cares, they're very aggressive towards russia :]
21:26 sofar this could have likely been prevented but perhaps polls were fixed to make it look like ukranians didn't want europe's aid
21:26 Fixer sofar: president was probably threatened by Putin, then he announced we won't cooperate with EU and will receive money from Putin
21:26 sofar paramat: wth? trump is effectively ass-kissin putin
21:26 sofar Fixer: yeah, undoutably (and then he ran)
21:26 Fixer sofar: it is not about the aid
21:26 paramat Shara it's worth opening an issue for settable timeout time, at least for discussion
21:26 sofar it would have made it harder for russia
21:27 sofar without the aid the country is in chaos -> easy invasion/insurgion
21:27 Fixer sofar: people in ukraine like european system more or less, they don't want this russia-alike cleptocracy with czar/oligarchs and stupid peasants without any rights
21:27 paramat trump yes, the rest of USA government differs
21:27 sofar with the aid it would potentially attack european aid
21:28 Fixer sofar: it is not about the aid
21:28 Fixer sofar: Ukraine can easily aid itself, by beeing realistic, you can't pay 1usd for gas, if it costs 5... government created huge communism like warfare systems, it was not sustainable
21:28 sofar what-if scenarios are kinda useless, yes
21:29 Fixer sofar: they fixed it after revolution
21:30 Fixer sofar: currency exchange was unrealistic for years, nobody wanted to fix it, gas prices were ridiculous low (yet guy cost a lot) - nobody wanted to fix this, they wanted to get more debt instead of telling the truth
21:30 sofar well I hope that ukr becomes a better country for it, but losing a significant part of it to essentially russia is still a waste
21:30 Fixer sofar: there is no free living
21:30 Fixer sofar: you have not lived under communism, what it created in people, cancer
21:30 paramat and EU cares too, it has imposed sanctions on russia
21:30 Fixer sofar: more or less it created peasant people that relied on mammy state for everything
21:31 Fixer sofar: especially in russia
21:31 Fixer sofar: so when communism collapsed, we transitioned to "market"
21:31 Fixer sofar: but
21:31 Fixer sofar: here comes shitty part
21:31 sofar right, I haven't. I've seen only some of what it can do (berlin etc, right after wall came down)
21:31 Fixer sofar: to please "people", they lowered gas/heating/whatever prices, and you know how it ends up, look Venesuela
21:32 Fixer fucking soviet degenerate economy
21:33 Fixer sofar: after revolution, currency exchange is free floating now, fixed our export-import, it is improving, stabilisation, realistic utility prices, yet people still complain that they need to pay more
21:33 Fixer lots of reforms
21:33 Fixer yet people still complain
21:33 Fixer they want something visible
21:33 Fixer like road construction, shit like that
21:34 Fixer road construction is seriously increasing too
21:34 sofar instead they got dashcam videos
21:34 Fixer sofar: my parents had no fucking toilet paper
21:34 Fixer SERIOSLY
21:34 sofar I believe you
21:34 Fixer huge mega super pony communism wander @ no toilet paper
21:35 Fixer how??????
21:36 Fixer capitalism has its own faults, but not communism again, fuck this
21:37 Fixer also, EU/Ukraine itself buried head in the sand while Russia went back to ultra-far-right-everything-is-Russia-antiwestern mode
21:37 Fixer we suffered because of our stupidity, but now we learned our lesson (at least most of the people, except commies, they love russia so much)
21:38 rdococ hm
21:38 rdococ I wonder what I should put on my website
21:40 Fixer sofar: here is another example, schools, Ukraine reduces amount of schools with like 10 children, instead they go in bigger one and use bus, people are SAD
21:41 sofar that's happening everywhere
21:41 Fixer sofar: or medicine, people just don't understand there is amount-quality trade-off, they want school-hospital in even smallest village
21:41 sofar teachers in the US buying pencils for kids with their own money
21:42 Fixer sofar: and now comes communists and says how USA(tm)-sponsored(R) government destroys our schools/hospitals/blablabla
21:42 sofar they do that in the US too
21:43 Fixer people just don't understand that you can't have 10 awesome hospitals, you choose 1 good hospital, or 10 shitty ones... people want 10... it is puzzling, meh, don't want to drive so much to that hospital
21:44 Fixer sofar: or... you will not believe but people in Ukraine call ambulance when they have something like +39*C or baby cries...
21:44 Fixer sofar: because they expect "free" ambulance
21:44 Fixer same for whole exUSSR
21:46 Fixer they don't understand that ambulance is for saving lives... not doing one injection in butt to reduce your body temp from +39 to +37*C
21:46 Fixer true story
21:47 Fixer sofar: and worst thing that USA has both sides of the cancer, neonazis and communists, but I have suspicious that USA(tm) communism should be more human friendly without too much genocide like USSR practiced
21:47 sofar I believe communism is entirely gone
21:48 sofar socialism plenty though, but that's something completely different
21:48 sofar I'm probably not using the same definitions that you may have gotten in school when you were a kid :)
21:49 sofar to me, socialism means public schooling, healtcare including mental health, welfare are single-payer solved issues
21:49 Fixer sofar: lets say I avoided that cancer, but my parents have not, but it is more of older generation problem
21:50 Fixer sofar: in reasonable manner... but not Venesuela like
21:50 Fixer sofar: or another thing like pensions
21:51 Grandolf joined #minetest-hub
21:51 sofar welfare includes pensions imho
21:51 Fixer sofar: in Ukraine it is 60/60, but it is still not quite good financially, and people are very sad to have 63/63... they don't understand that without doing that future pensioners will have even less pensions :(
21:51 sofar welfare == people who should or can not work
21:51 Fixer pensions = necessary
21:52 sofar welfare is necessary
21:52 Fixer sofar: in Ukraine problem was regulated utility prices that were unreal and made huge debt, that was fixed after revolution
21:53 Fixer sofar: when you pay 1usd for heating and budget pays another 5usd... people don't even know about that
21:53 Fixer they think they are ripped off
21:53 Fixer this regulation has a name
21:54 sofar as I recall it was russian gas prices that got jacked on ukraine
21:54 Fixer sofar: yes, but government went with poker face and price "for people" was very low, it was stupid populist policy
21:55 sofar sure, that's not very intelligent
21:55 sofar it's also political suicide anyway, irregardless
21:55 Fixer sofar: smth like 0.1 usd for 1cu m of natural gas, thats like free compared to Europe prices
21:55 Fixer sofar: thats populism aka Trump
21:55 sofar but essentially russia did that, ukraine just got played
21:56 sofar "here, have some more free heroin"
21:56 Fixer sofar: politicial suicide? ha, that president-traitor who left to Russia now lives in russian government mension, life is good (c)
21:57 sofar yes but his former friends are all out of office now, and wish they hadn't taken his word for it
21:57 sofar at least, that's what I assume, lol
21:57 Fixer sofar: they have enough money, it is not western-corruption like
21:58 Fixer sofar: here it is you grub money as fast as possible and buy everybody or left the country to Russia, it accepts all kinds of scum around the world
21:59 Fixer revolving door corruption is too slow for us
21:59 Fixer thats reserved for german guys like Shreder
22:00 Fixer sofar: yes, free heroin
22:00 Fixer sofar: Russia has other country on "free heroin" it is called Belarus
22:01 Fixer country that still emulates kind of soviet past on russian welfare
22:01 sofar that place is scary
22:02 Fixer sofar: nah, i know a guy who went there (working trip), it was funny
22:02 Fixer sofar: they don't talk about politics, end of story
22:02 Fixer closed mouth
22:03 Fixer actually very few exUSSR countries are free and democratic more or less... like only 6 out of 15
22:04 Fixer all of them on western border near EU
22:04 Fixer what is amazing about russia
22:04 Fixer it is huge country with 140 million peasants
22:04 Fixer they have literally one main party and few "technical" parties
22:04 Fixer they hardly can name opponents for putin
22:04 Fixer Only
22:04 Fixer Putin
22:04 Fixer no more alternatives
22:05 Fixer thats how propaganda works
22:05 rdococ hm
22:05 Fixer it is politically dead
22:05 rdococ Is there an easy way to add some kind of base HTML (say, a menu) on each page?
22:06 sofar what page?
22:06 Fixer sofar: funny how USA/Europe free speech is actively used by Russia and Islamists to promote their propaganda, China probably too
22:07 Fixer also, Richard Stallman was on RussiaToday
22:08 Fixer thats kinda sad, that this may hurt OSS a little, eh, nobody cares, RMS was always considered weird but he was right in many places
22:09 IhrFussel What is quicktune?
22:10 Fixer same question
22:11 IhrFussel When I press pageup/down on my keyboard it says quicktune = "(nothing)" = (none)
22:11 Fixer sofar: somewhere in our news I remember some guy from Netherland said MH17 downing is bad, but business with Russia is also good, thats EU for you
22:12 sofar I doubt that that is the general consensus, my family sure isn't going to go shop russian any time soon
22:12 sofar they are still appalled and shocked
22:12 Xio joined #minetest-hub
22:14 Fixer i don't feel like EU really cares, it is just talks, Germany even wants to build another pipe from Russia and their minister said American natural gas competition is kinda bad idea
22:14 Fixer it is strange
22:14 Fixer they talk about finding other suppliers, yet they want another pipe to increase monopoly
22:14 rubenwardy rdococ, what host?
22:15 rdococ rubenwardy: using github pages
22:15 Fixer not sure why USA gas is that bad
22:15 rubenwardy ah, github.io
22:15 rubenwardy look at Jekyll. You get that for free with github pages
22:15 rdococ it was easier than doing anything else, lol
22:15 rubenwardy meaning no work
22:15 Fixer from what I seen prices are pretty good, compared to Europe
22:15 rdococ I'd use Jekyll but meh.
22:15 rubenwardy I use github pages to host rubenwardy.com
22:15 rdococ it's more fun when I do it by hand.
22:15 rubenwardy Jekyll is really good and light weight
22:15 rdococ I will really regret that.
22:15 rdococ :P
22:16 rubenwardy you still do HTML by hand
22:16 Fixer maybe it is not that much cheaper, but alternatives are welcome, natural gas is still used as political tool
22:16 rubenwardy you can just use templates
22:16 rdococ ah
22:16 rdococ well, maybe
22:16 rubenwardy for example, rubenwardy.com is all HTML just with includes for header and footer
22:16 rdococ I might take a look in that case
22:16 rubenwardy Jekyll isn't a CSM, it's a static site generator which makes raw HTML easier
22:17 Fixer sofar: you mentioned skyrocketed gas prices for Ukraine by Russia, here is part you don't probably know, for -100 usd prices down they wanted their fleet to stay longer in Cremia... then they annexed it anyway
22:18 Fixer we don't buy natural gas from Russia anymore, via Europe only, it is done, no more of this crap
22:19 sofar all this oil and gas and coal shit needs to go away anyway
22:19 Fixer sofar: also, USA these days is literally Ukraine-like politics
22:19 Fixer reading USA forums, ... same thing
22:20 Fixer sofar: ha, you mentioned coal... guess what...?
22:20 sofar apparently trump has made stupid people feel it's ok to open your mouth
22:21 Fixer sofar: Ukraine has very deep and dangerous antracite coal mines (Donbass), coal extraction is not profitable (mostly), Tetcher did it in 198X, Ukraine? Nah... let it run, see, bestest capitalism
22:21 Fixer bestest as in Borat
22:22 sofar I still haven't seen Borat
22:23 Fixer sofar: same for car producers, ... oh, they produce 100 cars per month... lets support them and increase prices on everything imported by thousands... "PROFIT", not really
22:23 Fixer and aftermarket prices are shit there because of this
22:23 sofar coal is dead anyway, too expensive to exploit due to labor cost
22:24 sofar with rising wages everywhere in the world, soon it'll only be used for steel and that's it
22:24 Fixer sofar: how much? here 1000 usd per worker is probably considered good here, at least they demand 1000 usd NOW on some strikes
22:25 Fixer we have steel production, but using local mines is problematic, some profitable some not, most is occupied by russian-prorussian-separatist thing, coal is exported to russia now
22:25 sofar it doesn't matter much since cost of things are relative
22:26 Fixer sofar: nah... East Europe business, you don't understand (tm)
22:26 Fixer sofar: steal one pack of vodka, drink it, destroy bottles, ???, profit
22:26 Fixer business
22:26 sofar I do understand. Even china isn't opening as many new coal plants as they previously said they would
22:26 sofar reason: it's just not cost effective
22:27 sofar they are sure as hell not doing it for the environment
22:27 Fixer sofar: hint, you can do "unoffical mine"
22:27 Fixer sofar: you are not anarchocapitalistic (tm) enough
22:27 sofar nah, they could care less
22:27 sofar besides, it's easily monitored and spotted
22:27 Fixer pfff, Donbass environment was ruined long ago, it is rust belt, total
22:27 sofar china still imports coal anwyay
22:27 Fixer rust + coal belt
22:28 sofar mostly due to a lack of their own resources
22:28 Fixer sofar: china will cool down anyway and coal demand will lower eventually
22:29 sofar coal for electricity will be eradicated soon, imho
22:29 Fixer Europe slowly builds up solar / wund station
22:29 sofar 10-20 years tops
22:29 Fixer sofar: here it is 50% atomic, some hydro, and most was antracite from local mines, it is transfered to other coal type right now
22:30 Fixer very roughly, i maybe wrong
22:30 Fixer coal was something like 30%
22:31 Fixer sofar: environment be damned anyway, maybe US/Europe does something, but in other places... be damned
22:32 Fixer sofar, also, Ukraine will buy your coal now, I hope you are happy :D
22:32 Fixer somewhere from midwest
22:33 * sofar declares weekend and goes home
22:34 Fixer weekends are best
22:34 sofar 3-day weekend too, yay
22:36 Fixer sofar: I have coal on my shelf, also, is it a bit radioactive from what I know?
22:37 Fixer less radioactive then igneous rocks?
22:47 rubenwardy wow
22:47 rubenwardy so much politics
22:47 rubenwardy so much offtopic
22:47 rubenwardy :D
22:50 paramat yeah, enough :]
22:53 Fixer paramat: history of swastika (prenazi) is very interesting, widely used symbol across Europe and Asia for thousands of years (even in roman times), symbol in Buddism
22:55 Fixer used by neonazis today more or less, and in buddism
22:58 Fixer and probably other religions
22:59 shivajiva note the original symbol was mirrored when the Nazis used it
22:59 paramat i'm sure the other uses used both directions though
23:00 Fixer swastika can be both directions
23:01 Fixer basically it is everywhere, but you can't mention it because nazism and neonazis
23:01 Calinou so I'm looking at some archived page: https://web.archive.org/web/20150218160738/http​://www.funender.com:80/quake/articles/fps.html
23:01 Fixer probably ok in asia
23:01 Calinou "This calculator will probably only work in Internet Explorer, as it needs VBScript."
23:01 Calinou ooh, the Windows 2000/XP era…
23:01 Fixer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#/media/Fi​le:Winchestercathedralheadonwilliamedingtontomb.jpg
23:03 rdococ lol
23:04 rdococ dora the explorer
23:05 Fixer Calinou: "probably"
23:05 Fixer works for me!11
23:06 rdococ lol
23:09 Calinou <shivajiva> note the original symbol was mirrored when the Nazis used it
23:09 Calinou or when Romero first put it in E1M4--
23:09 Calinou oh wait
23:14 rdococ moo
23:18 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
23:33 Shara Calinou: RC uses remote media and still gets the issue. I've also optimised every mod I have to reduce the amount of total media.
23:34 Calinou :(
23:34 Calinou I guess it's because there's tons of small files to download
23:34 Shara DL on the other hand does not use remote media, and doesn't get the issue as much
23:34 Calinou libcurl doesn't support HTTP/2 (at least in Minetest), so there's lots of requests done and it's slow
23:34 rubenwardy not quite as fast as MTG, Shara
23:34 Calinou having a single .zip with all the data would be much faster, but this is a lot of work both on the client side (adding a virtual filesystem, eg. PhysicsFS) and the server side (script to assemble media into a .zip)
23:34 Megaf joined #minetest-hub
23:35 Shara (I'd be extremely angry to find DL got removed from the main list due to this anyway)
23:35 rubenwardy but not quite another server I connected too
23:35 rubenwardy :D
23:35 rubenwardy does MT do individual downloading with remote media
23:35 Calinou this is what Quake 3 and derivatives do, custom assets come in .pk3 files which are just renamed .zip files
23:35 rubenwardy does it support HTTP/2 for batching?
23:35 Calinou no extraction is needed, the client downloads them from a web server and uses them directly
23:35 Calinou pretty sure it doesn't use HTTP/2
23:35 Calinou it downloads each asset with these cryptic hexadecimal names :P
23:35 Shara But yea, number of files can be an issue as well as size. Number is harder to reduce though.
23:36 Shara But too tired to think about it tonight. Good night!
23:38 rubenwardy I have no idea where the exit to this library is
23:38 rubenwardy oh well
23:38 rubenwardy time to sleep anyway
23:39 rdococ woof
23:47 Calinou now I want this for Christmas… http://www.nofrag.com/images/007eaf.jpg :D
23:48 IhrFussel How to make an entity immortal?
23:48 Calinou source is here: http://imgur.com/gallery/FSMca
23:48 rubenwardy IhrFussel, with immortal
23:48 rubenwardy *troll face*
23:48 IhrFussel immortal = true?
23:48 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L1431]
23:49 rubenwardy huh, says it's a group by the objectref doesn't mention any group params
23:50 rdococ https://rdococ.github.io/index.html
23:50 IhrFussel so damage_groups = {immortal=1} ?
23:50 rdococ the "Test" element is linked to "#test", which doesn't do anything :P
23:51 rubenwardy wiki mentions armor_group
23:51 rubenwardy no, armor_groups
23:51 rdococ armor_hugs
23:52 rubenwardy damage_groups is a tool thing
23:52 rubenwardy so   armor_groups = { immortal = 1 }
23:52 rubenwardy it looks like
23:52 rubenwardy lua_api sucks
23:52 rdococ hugs?
23:53 rdococ btw, what are your thoughts on my "website" so far? :P
23:53 rdococ it only has one page but I got a working navigation menu
23:53 rubenwardy nice
23:53 rubenwardy padding is very important, btw
23:53 rubenwardy for readability
23:54 rubenwardy I'd separate the body and the navbar more
23:54 Jordach rubenwardy, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udj-o2m39NA
23:54 rubenwardy also, your HTML is invalid
23:54 rubenwardy things you see can only be in <body>
23:54 rubenwardy so your nav bar and header should be in <body>
23:54 rubenwardy use <heading> for a heading
23:54 rdococ ah
23:54 rubenwardy and <nav> for a navbar instead
23:55 rdococ wait, there's a <nav> element?
23:55 rubenwardy yeah, HTML5
23:55 rubenwardy it's semantic
23:55 rubenwardy no functional meaning over div
23:55 Jordach HTML5 is just XHTML with JS bolted on as a forced requirement
23:55 rubenwardy nope, Jordach
23:55 rubenwardy you can use HTML5 without JS
23:55 rubenwardy I do
23:56 Jordach rubenwardy, anytime someone says use HTML, the JS libs start flowing faster than sudo apt-get install *
23:56 rubenwardy well, you have to drop support for IE5 or w/e
23:56 rubenwardy just because other people do bad things doesn't mean you have to do them
23:56 Jordach rubenwardy, and then re-invent the wheel because you need a JS library to handle the drab
23:56 rdococ the nav bar doesn't seem to do anything...
23:56 rdococ s/bar/tag/
23:56 rdococ (the bar works)
23:56 rubenwardy My website is in HTML5, and also works in lynx
23:57 Jordach rubenwardy, which probably doesn't even need JS to start with
23:57 rubenwardy rdococ, it's semantic. Ie: good for search engines and readability
23:57 rdococ ah
23:57 rdococ makes sense, I guess
23:58 rdococ hm
23:58 rdococ odd
23:58 benrob0329 A friend of mine asked how a site he set up looked, so I opened it in w3m and it worked
23:58 rdococ it can't get the "menu" element for some reason, now that I put it in <nav> tags
23:58 rubenwardy make sure menu.js is loaded after the nav element
23:59 rdococ ahh
23:59 rubenwardy and also use the async keyword
23:59 benrob0329 So cudos to them
23:59 benrob0329 It was a WordPress site too
23:59 rubenwardy <script async src="menu.js" />
23:59 IhrFussel rubenwardy, armor_groups = {immortal=1} didn't help AT ALL...it seemed to have 10 HP
23:59 rdococ oh
23:59 rdococ async
23:59 rubenwardy async means it's asynchronous, and doesn't block the page
23:59 rdococ ik ik
23:59 rubenwardy as much as possible you should try and put scripts and CSS between </body> and </html>
23:59 rubenwardy and scripts should be async as much as possible

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