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IRC log for #minetest, 2017-07-11

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Time Nick Message
00:21 MinetestBot [git] paramat -> minetest/minetest: Advanced settings: Reformat noise parameter format example 0b3a8de https://git.io/vQ1Uk (2017-07-11T00:15:01Z)
00:21 MinetestBot [git] paramat -> minetest/minetest: Biomes/decorations/ores: Make relative to 'water_level' setting 8299e4b https://git.io/vQ1UI (2017-07-11T00:14:24Z)
00:21 MinetestBot [git] numberZero -> minetest/minetest: Add 'plantlike_rooted' drawtype ef285b2 https://git.io/vQ1UL (2017-07-11T00:02:22Z)
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02:19 AntumDeluge I know that there are functions for unregistering items & chat commands, but I don't see anything for entities. Is there a way to unregister/override entities in the game?
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04:51 Hijiri I didn't know there were functions for unregistering items and chat commands
04:51 Hijiri there is a way to override entities though
04:51 Hijiri minetest.override_entity
04:51 Hijiri AntumDeluge: ^
04:51 Hijiri check it out in lua_api.txt
04:52 Hijiri oh wait
04:52 Hijiri maybe it doesn't exist
04:52 Hijiri you could directly modified the entity definition though
04:53 Hijiri You can get the definition table by doing minetest.registered_entities["modname:entityname"]
05:23 AntumDeluge Hijiri, thank you that is a possibility. Originally I wanted to unregister an entity then re-register it with a new name. I suppose since minetest.registered_entities is a table of entity definitions I could just remove the entry after I've copied the definition. Not sure if that's the best way though.
05:26 AntumDeluge I think, to keep things simple though, I will just modify the original entity rather than deleting it.
05:28 AntumDeluge Do you know if retrieving a definition from minetest.registered_entities creates a reference or copy?
05:30 AntumDeluge So if I wanted to add an attribute to a registered entity, could I just do "minetest.registered_entities["mo​dname:entityname"].new_attribute = value"?
05:30 AntumDeluge If I put it into a local variable would that reference it or make a copy? E.g. "local variable = minetest.registered_entiti​es["modname:entityname"]"
05:40 Hijiri AntumDeluge: table values in Lua are all references (in the pointer sense, not C++ references) to table data
05:40 Hijiri so table values in Lua are really "pointer to table" values
05:41 Hijiri so it would affect the one in the registered_entities table
05:41 AntumDeluge Okay. And the same thing if I put it into a local variable? Changes to local variable are reflected in minetest.registered_entities entry?
05:41 Hijiri AntumDeluge: Unregistering the entity is a bad idea because it will break mods that spawn that entity
05:42 Hijiri AntumDeluge: the local variable is just a pointer to the same table data
05:42 Hijiri the entry in registered_entities is a pointer
05:42 Hijiri you are copying a pointer to the same data
05:42 AntumDeluge Okay. I'm glad to hear that.
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06:11 GreenDimond Why is this happening? https://pasteboard.co/GAoNIBT.png
06:12 GreenDimond It is supposed to be a simple round hole, but it ends up in a mess...
06:12 GreenDimond Inside Blender it looks just fine.
06:16 GreenDimond Too bad Jordach isnt here
06:16 GreenDimond He'd know
06:31 GreenDimond I shall ask tomorrow
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06:50 hisforever Hi I'd like to know how to correct these http://imgur.com/a/w7LF9 ?
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07:16 AntumDeluge hisforever, the "Could not load image" errors just look like missing texture images.
07:17 AntumDeluge Guessing from the look of the descriptions, those images should be included with a mod called "inventory_sorter".
07:19 AntumDeluge Looks like "inventory_sorter" is included in the "dreambuilder" modpack: https://github.com/VanessaE/dreambuilde​r_modpack/tree/master/inventory_sorter
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07:22 AntumDeluge I'm not sure about the other errors.
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07:46 hisforever Should
07:47 hisforever i dpwnload invebntory_Sorter?
07:48 hisforever download
07:49 hisforever AntumDeluge: Thanks
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07:55 hisforever Is there a wat to get Smaller nodes? the ones that are in my game look so huge?
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09:57 iisu Is there a way to recreate terrain from the seed exactly?
09:58 Raven262 Yes, generate a new world witrh the same seed, you'll get the same world
10:00 iisu The caves generate diffently though.
10:01 iisu I guess I have to downgrade MT to the version used when the map was originally generated.
10:02 iisu I tried generating it several times and looks like the caves are always the same, yet there are different than on the old map.
10:05 Raven262 I thought same seed is used for the caves every time
10:05 Raven262 I mean same seed that is applied to the main seed
10:07 hisforever what exactly are the seeds in the make new world?
10:08 Raven262 They are random numbers used for map generation.
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10:13 hisforever ty Ravien
10:16 hisforever I sure would like to know how to fix these errors http://imgur.com/a/VYBGv ?
10:19 Raven262 For first part, there is a mod that is trying to replace nodes with some unregistered nodes (possibly a mod is missing), second part is about a missing texture (or textures), i guess you ripped off a mod from somewhere and it doesn't work?
10:20 hisforever ty raven
10:20 iisu Yes, Raven, the caves are the same every time I generate them but still they're completely different from the map I try to recreate.
10:20 iisu The original map is a year or two old.
10:22 hisforever Raven262 I think Im'm getting things screw up by installing mods then taking them out because there not working?
10:23 hisforever so should I remove all mods, but will that work?
10:24 Raven262 Possibly.
10:25 hisforever ok ty
10:25 hisforever have to go God bless
10:28 iisu I guess this is because newer versions of Minetest add new blocks to the mapgen so the mapgen has to rearrange everything and produce different result even though the seed is the same.
10:30 Raven262 I don't think so
10:30 Raven262 The mapgen is still generating the same terrain, the biome specific nodes are added afterwards
10:31 Raven262 Which means, if a new biome was added, or if the biome heat/humidity settings were tweaked, you would still get the same terrain shape but different arrangement of biomes.
10:32 Raven262 The biome-specific decorations are added afterwards, like trees , grass, papyrus and other.
10:35 iisu Yes, the terrain is all the same except for caves, new resources and biomes.
10:49 iisu Can I somehow stop the generator from spawning dirt, gravel and sand piles in mountains? Cause they don't look good.
10:50 Raven262 No you can't do it specificaly for mountains
10:50 Raven262 Mapgen doesn't know where are the mountains
10:51 iisu Just anything up from a certain level would do.
10:53 Raven262 Modify the registration of the gravel and dirt blob ores, set its height to what you desire.
10:53 Raven262 Its in default mod, mapgen.lua
10:53 Raven262 first registered ores are blob ores (to avoid scatters in blobs)
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11:00 iisu Better now. The caves didn't change though so my theory that they're generated with resources like dirt and gravel was wrong.
11:02 iisu Last question: how do I import chunks from a local save of the map received from server?
11:03 iisu No, I totally don't want to steal server's map :P
11:05 Raven262 You want to save the loaded chunks from the server?
11:05 Raven262 enable_local_map_saving = true in minetest.conf
11:06 iisu That's what I've done and now I want to copy certain chunks to the new map I generated with the same seed.
11:07 Raven262 ...
11:07 Raven262 Probably you could open the saved map and generate it further with the same seed
11:07 Raven262 But i have no idea how to do it
11:07 Raven262 Wait
11:07 Raven262 Maybe
11:08 Raven262 If you set the map's seed somewhere in the world's foled, or in minetest.conf idk where it is stored
11:08 Raven262 and set the mapgen too
11:08 Raven262 You would get the same world generated over the save
11:11 iisu But this way it would copy all the chunks I saved, most of which I don't want.
11:12 Raven262 Well, i doubt you can copy the specific chunks :P
11:12 iisu The map is stored as a database, I just need to find the chunks by their position and copy them to the new database somehow.
11:13 Raven262 I do not know how that works, sorry.
11:13 iisu Also, when I copy the map to a new world it generates new biomes over it. So all buildings end up covered with dirt and trees.
11:14 Raven262 That is cause mapgen and seed mismatch
11:15 iisu Yeah, I've tried it before but without matching seed.
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11:23 iisu Nope, the biomes still generate, only it is a little bit less agressive now.
11:23 iisu Some of the cobble also turned into mossy cobble without a reason, lol.
11:26 iisu One of my buildings rely on the caves arrangement which is now all changed. :/
11:26 jin_xi mudflow? seen this happening on top of mod generated stone structures
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11:32 iisu I think I'll figure it out, except for the biomes and caves going wild. Thanks for help.
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11:36 jin_xi if i remeber correctly the solution to mapgen covering stone with earth and vegetation was to create an alias for stone and use that
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15:17 rocky1138 I have a question about BlockPlanet. It appears that they've relicensed Minetest to be GPL3.0. Did they need permission from the copyright holders of Minetest to do that? Or because the Minetest license says LGPL or later are they able to do that without permission?
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15:20 AndDT rocky1138: first link in google says that guys don't have the rights to relicense LGPL -> GPL3
15:21 AndDT It's a difficult question. Any lawyers in channel? :)
15:22 rocky1138 Honestly I google'd and duckduckgoed for 30 minutes before coming here :(
15:22 rocky1138 My Google-fu must be rusty.
15:22 Krock why haven't you binged it?
15:23 sfan5 rocky1138, pretty sure you can't just relicense lgpl to gpl
15:23 * Krock looks at freeminer
15:23 sfan5 idk haven't read the full license
15:24 rocky1138 I don't think you can without the permission of the copyright holders, either. But I'm confused about the "LGPL 2 _or later_"
15:24 sfan5 or later means you can upgrade the license to lgpl 3
15:25 Krock where "upgrade" = more restricted
15:26 rocky1138 The reason I'm asking is there's a person on YouTube doing really good work on BlockPlanet but he says he can't backport his work to Minetest and Minetest can't use it because BlockPlanet is GPL3.
15:26 rocky1138 And I was confused as to how a fork of Minetest wouldn't be able to benefit from user contributions.
15:26 Krock that's BlockMen and he used to be a Minetest dev
15:26 rocky1138 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBMOG_dTbWo
15:26 sfan5 !title
15:26 MinetestBot sfan5: Dynamic shadows with shaders! (proof of concept for Minetest :P) - YouTube
15:26 Krock 304
15:28 sfan5 assuming you can just relicense lgpl to gpl, then yes indeed minetest can't merge those improvements
15:28 rocky1138 sfan5 yes, but what I'm wondering is did BlockPlanet have permission to relicense Minetest to GPL3?
15:28 Krock unless the author allows it or, in a imaginary ideal case, where the author provides a PR. But most likely none of this will happen
15:33 sfan5 rocky1138, 3. You may opt to apply the terms of the ordinary GNU General Public License instead of this License to a given copy of the Library. [...] Once this change is made in a given copy, it is irreversible for that copy, so the ordinary GNU General Public License applies to all subsequent copies and derivative works made from that copy.
15:33 sfan5 (http://www.gnu.de/documents/lgpl-2.1.en.html)
15:37 sfan5 tl;dr yes
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15:48 rocky1138 Very interesting. That explains the move from LGPL to GPL. What about the upgrade from GPL2 to GPL3? Is that explained by the "or later" in the original license? My gut says yes.
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15:50 sfan5 the 'or later' in the original license only refers to lgpl
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15:52 rocky1138 So we still don't have any way to move from GPL2 to GPL3 without permission from the original copyright holders.
15:54 sfan5 depends
15:55 sfan5 if the gpl includes the (or later) clause by default, then the move would be to gpl2 (+ or later) from where you could move to gpl3
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17:39 GreenDimond Why is this happening? https://pasteboard.co/GAoNIBT.png
17:40 GreenDimond In Blender it's a normal cut-out hole, but when in Minetest it turns to a mess...
17:41 sofar UV mapping around holes is a problem
17:41 sofar the best thing to do is to make sure your UV maps never make a U or O shape
17:42 sofar so triangulize the surface in blender
17:42 rocky1138 I really wish IRC would show me channel history
17:43 rocky1138 I lost the conversation about GPL2/GPL3
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17:45 GreenDimond sofar: what do you mean by triangulize? it's already split in 2.. I need to split it more?
17:48 sofar you still have U shaped surfaces
17:49 GreenDimond yes I see that
17:49 GreenDimond but when I triangulate that is a lot of surfaces..
17:49 sofar the problem with a circle hole is that you're gonna need a ton of triangles
17:49 sofar the outside circle edge is not the problem, it's the inside hole
17:49 GreenDimond yes I know
17:50 GreenDimond I added the triangulate modifier
17:50 twoelk rocky1138: http://irc.minetest.ru/min​etest/2017-07-11#i_5006364
17:50 sofar yes you'll end up with a ton of triangles if you want to keep the shape
17:50 GreenDimond how much would that affect performance?
17:50 GreenDimond if at all
17:50 sofar if you let blender triangulate it then it should show up OK in minetest
17:50 GreenDimond so the only problem with the triangles is getting it to look good?
17:51 sofar nobody cares about 100 triangles or so
17:51 sofar 1000 is over the top though
17:51 sofar I'd try and keep the triangles to ~100 if you can
17:52 GreenDimond I am lucky
17:52 GreenDimond It is just ~98
17:52 GreenDimond (added)
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17:52 sofar the minetest boat used to be 1500 :)
17:53 twoelk the boat was that edgy?
17:53 sofar watch my video
17:53 sofar https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&am​p;q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&​cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiBtPSC5oHV​AhWCLmMKHXojAUsQtwIISDAE&url=https%3A%2F​%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DMQit9BK_Dc0​&usg=AFQjCNEmYCW3h-5k2LSFlyrbMDz_nZg6sQ
17:53 sofar errr, damn google link
17:53 sofar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQit9BK_Dc0
17:55 twoelk with no body shading one can't see all them edges anyways :-P
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17:55 rocky1138 twoelk thanks!
17:55 rocky1138 Has no one ever questioned BlockPlanet's relicensing of Minetest before? I find it hard to believe I'm the only oe.
17:56 rocky1138 one*
17:56 rocky1138 maybe Celeron55 doesn't care in the end?
17:56 sofar it's been a point of contention before
17:56 sofar the thing is, it's entirely legal
17:56 sofar you can relicense lgpl-2.1 to something else
17:56 GreenDimond I didn't even know he relicensed it
17:56 sofar but never back
17:56 sofar he relicenses every commit when he pulls
17:57 GreenDimond wow
17:57 rocky1138 if it's legal why is it a point of contention?
17:57 GreenDimond seems like he is advancing minetest faster than the devs :/
17:57 GreenDimond BlockPlanet*
17:57 sofar because any change *he* makes nobody else can merge back into minetest
17:57 rocky1138 why not relicense minetest as GPL3 and call it a day?
17:57 sofar only blockmen can submit changes back to minetest under lgpl
17:58 sofar because you do not negotiate with terrorists
17:58 sofar his fork is hostile
17:58 sofar pure and simple
17:58 GreenDimond ...
17:58 rocky1138 that's a pretty weak argument, based on irrationality
17:59 texel So question: is the minetest base game in a different repo somewhere? Just built from source, looking to see what I can do to help fix bugs.
17:59 celeron55 forks tend to die and then you're left with gpl3 code for no good long-term reason
17:59 rocky1138 it's possible that GPL3 is the right answer for minetest regardless of what blockplanet does.
17:59 GreenDimond He leaves Minetest just to go make his own game and doesn't even let Minetest use his work. How wude.
17:59 sofar I've been doing open source professionally for 15+ years
17:59 sofar that isn't a weak argument
17:59 GreenDimond Anywhos thanks for the help sofar
17:59 GreenDimond It worked btw :P
17:59 sofar the background is a long explanation why forks are fine, but forks like this where licenses change in this way are bad
18:00 sofar celeron55 is correct and that's the gist of why it's bad
18:00 rocky1138 is the only reason we are still on lgpl2 is because we don't want to give in to blockplanet? Wouldn't LGPL3 be better for minetest anyway?
18:00 celeron55 using gpl when forking an lgpl project is basically just an easy way to be hostile, unless you actually are a die-hard copyleft fanatic
18:00 sofar rocky1138: we can give to blockplanet
18:00 sofar rocky1138: the other way around is the problem
18:00 texel Ah. Nevermind. Just need to RTFM. =op
18:00 sofar any commit in minetest can go into blockplanet
18:00 rocky1138 yes
18:00 sofar the other way around, not so much
18:01 rocky1138 I meant why not just switch to lgpl3 for minetest then everything can be backported right?
18:01 sofar again
18:01 sofar because you do not negotiate with terrorists
18:01 rocky1138 is that the only answer? or is there some other actual reason
18:01 AntumDeluge sofar, haha!
18:02 rocky1138 like a problem with lgpl3 etc.
18:02 sofar essentially you'd let someone else dictate your licensing
18:02 celeron55 minetest was originally gpl, and i painstakingly switched it from that to lgpl before that was too late
18:02 celeron55 i'm not going the other way
18:03 celeron55 the more free, the better
18:03 sofar exactly
18:03 rocky1138 I'm not advocating a switch to GPL3 I'm asking why not LGPL3
18:03 rocky1138 and the only answer I'm getting is a kneejerk reaction
18:03 rocky1138 not some technical reason, etc.
18:03 celeron55 that wouldn't change anything
18:03 sofar gpl3 -> lgpl3 is not OK
18:03 rocky1138 Ah, okay. that makes sense then
18:03 rocky1138 that's what I was looking for
18:04 sofar this isn't kneejerk
18:04 * AntumDeluge looks up the meaning of "kneejerk"
18:04 sofar celeron55 knows his licenses
18:04 celeron55 if somebody could promise 5 more contributors for the next 10 years if MT switched to gpl, i would do that
18:04 celeron55 but nothing proves that would happen
18:05 celeron55 it would just be the same, but forever under a less free license
18:05 sofar let's look at it from the other side
18:05 sofar why, why, did blockmen pick a different license?
18:06 sofar there can be a few answers
18:06 sofar 1) he didn't know better
18:06 sofar 2) he knew exactly what he was doing
18:06 rocky1138 sofar this "gpl3 -> lgpl3 is not OK" was all I was looking for
18:06 sofar in the case of 1) he could have fixed it himself when he did knew better
18:07 sofar so obviously, he hasn't, and he knew exactly what he was doing
18:07 sofar so obviously, he doesn't want *his* improvements to go back into minetest
18:07 sofar not without his permission anyway
18:08 AntumDeluge What I'm gathering from this conversation is that BlockWorld could potentially draw developers away from Minetest & their work could not be backported to it. Is that accurate?
18:09 sofar there are some nuances, but essentially, yes
18:09 sofar only the people who *wrote* the code themselves can relicense it back to lgpl-2.1
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18:10 sofar blockmen could, with 1 line of text, granting everyone permission to take the code as lgpl-2.1, too
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18:11 sofar considering he accused me of theft a while back, I doubt he ever would
18:15 rubenwardy BlockPlanet is dead anyway
18:22 AntumDeluge sofar: Did that have anything to do with mob-engine mod? I had submitted a patch to BlockMen's Creatures Mob Engine mod a while back & was told that it had been abandoned & to open a PR for minetest-mods/mob-engine.
18:23 sofar AntumDeluge: no, that's just a separate mod, the whole license discussion is irrelevant for that
18:23 AntumDeluge rubenwardy: Freeminer is dead too, I think (not that it pertains to this conversation).
18:23 AntumDeluge sofar: I mean about the accusation of theft.
18:24 AntumDeluge Like, was BlockMen not happy that Creatures Mob Engine had been relabeled to mob-engine?
18:24 AntumDeluge Or was it BlockMen who actually did that?
18:25 AntumDeluge Appears that BlockPlanet code hasn't been updated for around 2 years: https://github.com/blockplanet/blockplanet
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18:26 sofar the theft accusation was because I made some trivial code and he had previously written that as well
18:26 sofar that was minetest, not a mod
18:26 AntumDeluge Ah, okay. I see what you mean.
18:28 AntumDeluge Why get offended over that anyway? Doesn't matter who wrote code. It's all copyright The FSF, right? ;)
18:29 AntumDeluge Kind of a joke, because all copies of the GPL/LGPL say "Copyright Free Software Foundation" ( I really don't understand the licenses).
18:31 AntumDeluge I use an MIT license for most of my projects because it's "simple". But I don't think it protects from similar situations at all.
18:35 red-001 if someone wants the features he added in minetest they can just fork minetest
18:35 red-001 change the license
18:35 red-001 port the features and then keep it updated
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18:47 sofar AntumD: the "text" of the GPL is copyrighted by itself, and owned by the FSF
18:48 sofar AntumD: your software is copyrighted by you, not the FSF
18:48 sofar even if it's licensed under the GPL
18:48 red-001 so eh what is it released under?
18:49 sofar #define "what"
18:49 red-001 what license is GPL released under?
18:49 sofar not licensed
18:49 sofar copyrighted
18:50 sofar https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.txt
18:50 sofar "Copyright (C) 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc. <http://fsf.org/>
18:50 sofar Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies
18:50 sofar of this license document, but changing it is not allowed.
18:50 sofar "
18:50 sofar well, technically that is a license statement
18:51 red-001 for some reason I find that license statement ironic
18:51 red-001 GPL itself is basically freeware
18:52 sofar it's actually really important that they did it that way
18:52 sofar to prevent someone from making a fake GPL license
18:53 red-001 couldn't they add something like "You are modify this license but you must renamed"?
18:53 red-001 s/are/can
18:53 red-001 +it
18:55 sofar they could, but why would you?
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18:57 sofar I mean, they had some expensive lawyers to write these
18:58 sofar seems strange to then allow other people to take parts of it
18:58 sofar and that would just be dangerous anyway
19:19 Hijiri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_​General_Public_License#Derivations
19:19 Hijiri apparently you can create derivatives if you don't include the preamble
19:20 Hijiri and rename the license
19:21 Hijiri https://www.gnu.org/license​s/gpl-faq.en.html#ModifyGPL
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19:31 lumidify The same thing happened with OpenOffice and LibreOffice - LibreOffice could copy code from OpenOffice but OpenOffice couldn't copy code from LibreOffice because LibreOffice changed its license to the GPL.
19:32 AntumDeluge That's interesting. Not sure I like the change in licensing, but I was definitely happy about the LibreOffice fork because OpenOffice was dying, & many Win32 builds were being hijacked by malware.
19:33 AntumDeluge Not that LibreOffice couldn't be hijacked as well. Just need to make sure you get software from a good source.
19:34 lumidify LaTex FTW! (none of that GUI word processor junk)
19:34 lumidify :P
19:34 AntumDeluge Lol! I am clueless as to how to work LaTex.
19:34 AntumDeluge I can't even figure out how to compile it from source. :)
19:35 AntumDeluge Always had to find pre-built binaries on Windows machines (luckily I have converted to non-Windows).
19:36 AntumDeluge But my family still uses Windows. So I have to work on that platform when they need help. Ugh!
19:36 lumidify It is sort of weird, because there are so many different compilers for it, meaning there isn't really one single piece of software.
19:37 lumidify I just use whatever is included in my OS's package repositories :)
19:37 AntumDeluge Aren't there a few different major forks as well?
19:37 AntumDeluge That's what's great about Linux & FreeBSD & package repositories.
19:37 lumidify Yeah, I'm not sure about all that - I usually just use the basic pdflatex command, but I know there are many others too (some are better for unicode stuff, etc.)
19:38 lumidify But I've started to write my papers in LaTex just because it makes things so simple for me - I found a good template online which I can just copy-paste and then write the actual text.
19:39 AntumDeluge It's funny how when mobile devices started coming about, app stores became popular. Even desktop OSes like Windows 10 have app stores. But Linux operating systems have been using package repositories for as long as I have been using them.
19:39 AntumDeluge Sorry Minetest devs, if this conversation isn't appropriate for this channel. :*(
19:40 kaeza don't forget about dumbed down interfaces and those ugly "ribbons"
19:40 lumidify I know! I find it so annoying that most people don't even know the benefits of package repositories. I can't imagine living without the repositories.
19:40 kaeza AntumDeluge, nah, this isn't #-dev :P
19:40 AntumDeluge Phew! :)
19:42 lumidify I still don't understand how Windows etc. can claim to be easy to use without even having a proper package manager.
19:44 AntumDeluge Well, Windows 10 does have the Windows Store now. But, I suppose there are differences from an actual package manager.
19:44 AntumDeluge Now that I think about it, I believe they introduced the Windows Store with 8.
19:45 * AntumDeluge hates Microsoft because they hate open software & hates Apple because they take advantage of open software but don't give back nor give credit.
19:46 lumidify The App Store just has a bunch of dumbed down apps, not proper packages like on Linux and BSD
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19:48 AntumDeluge I definitely like the packaging system on Linux/BSD distributions better.
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19:51 lumidify I think people just need to understand how it works to see the benefits - most people simply don't know about anything other than Windows or Mac, so they've never experienced proper package repositories.
19:52 AntumDeluge Just like they don't know about anything other than Microsoft Office. So, when they try LibreOffice, they complain that it's too hard or doesn't do what they need. :p
19:54 lumidify Yeah, I always rant about this stuff, but in the end I usually decide it's not worth the effort to try to switch people over.
19:57 AntumDeluge Exactly. I've given up trying to convince people to switch. It always ends up in a headache for me because I have to teach them how to use it, all the while listening to them complain.
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20:28 Calinou lumidify: LibreOffice is MPLv2 now
20:28 Calinou (used to be GPL/LGPLv2)
20:28 Calinou it is more permissive than the GPL or LGPL
20:28 Calinou (the copyleft is pretty weak)
20:28 lumidify Oh, nice.
20:28 Calinou (same license as eg. Firefox, since MPL = Mozilla Public License)
20:29 * lumidify hasn't looked at LibreOffice in a while...
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21:02 xMoskau Hey
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21:19 GreenDimond I have a node. I want the node to play a random sound from a list at random intervals, and make sure you have to be at a certain distance to do it. How would this be achieved?
21:19 GreenDimond *to hear it
21:20 KaadmY GreenDimond: minetest.sound_play({name = "foo_foosound", pos = player:getpos(), distance = 16})
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21:21 sofar GreenDimond: several ways of doing this
21:21 KaadmY Calinou: isn't LibreOffice the little program that couldn't?
21:21 sofar GreenDimond: abm's could work as a timer mechanism, or a node timer
21:21 GreenDimond I'll go for the "best" way if any
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21:22 sofar well abm's can be very costly to the server
21:22 sofar so I prefer node timers myself
21:22 GreenDimond in which case I dont want abms
21:22 Calinou KaadmY: the program that couldn't what?
21:23 GreenDimond How would I do it with nodetimers?
21:23 GreenDimond (sofar)
21:24 sofar add a on_construct() handler to the node that starts the node timer, and then when the node timer expires make sure to restart it so it keeps firing
21:24 sofar on_timer()
21:24 GreenDimond will it do it at random intervals?
21:24 sofar yes, because you can control the interval and make it random
21:24 GreenDimond I see
21:25 GreenDimond Are there any good examples of node timers that I could go off of?
21:25 GreenDimond I am new to node timers and I dont want to bother you to help too much :P
21:25 sofar sure, just look at nodetimer usage in minetest_game
21:26 GreenDimond nodetimers are used in sapplings right?
21:26 GreenDimond saplings*
21:26 GreenDimond looks like those are ABMs
21:26 calcul0n not sure, but i think saplings use abms
21:27 calcul0n tnt uses node timers
21:27 KaadmY Calinou: couldn't do anything useful :P
21:27 Calinou ah
21:28 Calinou well, it does basic stuff well
21:28 KaadmY Calinou: no, 0.4.16 converted trees to node timers
21:28 GreenDimond calcul0n*^
21:28 KaadmY minetest.get_node_timer(po​s):start(delay_in_seconds)
21:32 sofar saplings are nodetimers
21:32 sofar they used to be abms, but no more
21:32 GreenDimond I checked and it looked like it still uses abms
21:32 sofar link?
21:32 GreenDimond "-- Sapling ABM"
21:32 GreenDimond ^trees.lua
21:33 sofar link?
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21:33 GreenDimond hmmmm
21:33 GreenDimond nvm
21:33 GreenDimond check github
21:33 sofar :P
21:33 GreenDimond *checked
21:33 GreenDimond strange though
21:33 GreenDimond my local copy of default still says abm
21:34 sofar https://github.com/minetest/minetest_ga​me/blob/1aafcdd7e0f0c5723b882195aad5b0f​fd7293104/mods/default/nodes.lua#L610
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21:35 GreenDimond So for this I would do
21:37 GreenDimond on_construct = function(pos)  minetest.get_node_timer(pos​):start(math.random(1,10)) end,  on_timer = function(pos, elapsed)  minetest.sound_play(blablabla)  end,
21:38 sofar make sure to return `true` in on_timer
21:38 sofar https://github.com/minetest/minetes​t/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt#L4316
21:39 GreenDimond so..
21:39 sofar alternatively, change and start the timer again with a different timeout
21:39 GreenDimond return true   after the end,
21:39 sofar after sound_play before end
21:39 GreenDimond ah
21:41 GreenDimond testing..
21:41 sofar make sure to properly play the sound positionally too
21:41 GreenDimond how so?
21:42 GreenDimond whoops I need to define player
21:43 GreenDimond I forget what I am supposed to define it as
21:43 GreenDimond isnt it a get_pos or something?
21:43 sofar why would you play to a player's pos?
21:43 sofar don't you want the sound to be at the node?
21:43 GreenDimond yeah
21:44 sofar the node timer on_timer() function gets the `pos` as arg1
21:44 sofar on_timer(pos, elapsed)
21:44 GreenDimond on_timer = function(pos, elapsed)minetest.sound_play({name = "sound.ogg", pos = player:getpos(), distance = 16})(pos)
21:44 GreenDimond that is what it is right now
21:45 GreenDimond I guess that pos = etc.. is for if the sound is at the player
21:46 GreenDimond so if I want it at the node
21:46 GreenDimond I need to change pos =  to something else?
21:46 GreenDimond or am I completely clueless?
21:47 sofar sound_play("sound", {pos = pos})
21:47 sofar without the ".ogg"
21:47 sofar https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/sea​rch?utf8=%E2%9C%93&amp;q=sound_play&amp;type=
21:47 GreenDimond so I dont even need minetest.sound_play?
21:48 GreenDimond and dont I need a hear distance?
21:48 GreenDimond oh I do need the minetest.
21:48 GreenDimond but still what about the hear distance?
21:48 sofar defaults should be OK
21:49 sofar make sure the sound is mono
21:49 GreenDimond how do I know if it is? :P
21:49 sofar `file sound.ogg`
21:49 sofar or open it in audacity or something
21:49 GreenDimond heh
21:50 GreenDimond I cant use audacity because it cant find my internal sound device
21:50 GreenDimond but it is a .ogg
21:50 sofar linux or windows?
21:50 GreenDimond linux
21:50 GreenDimond Xubuntu 16.04 with Audacity 2.1.2
21:50 sofar run `file sound.ogg` from a terminal
21:51 sofar it tells you what the sample rate is and whether it is mono/stereo
21:51 GreenDimond stereo
21:51 sofar then convert it to mono
21:51 GreenDimond but it does play in minetest properly
21:51 GreenDimond how should I do that
21:51 GreenDimond another command?
21:52 sofar audacity can do it, easily
21:52 GreenDimond alright
21:52 sofar I suggest you fix your audio :P
21:52 GreenDimond heh
21:52 GreenDimond tried
21:52 GreenDimond dunno how
21:52 sofar ffmpeg can also do it, but that's commandline trauma
21:53 GreenDimond I am hoping I dont need audacity to have my internal device in order to convert
21:53 sofar maybe sox can easily do it too
21:54 GreenDimond Already did it in audacity
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21:54 sofar so, to explain why it needs to be mono
21:54 sofar if you give a stereo audio sample to openal, it plays it at the same volume irregardless of the distance to the player
21:55 GreenDimond ah
21:55 GreenDimond quick question
21:55 sofar which means the player can't find the location of the sound, ever, by listening
21:55 GreenDimond when exporting from audacity as ogg, what do I want to set the quality to?
21:55 GreenDimond ah ok
21:55 sofar default quality in audacity is OK
21:55 GreenDimond default is 5/10 so I will leave it
21:56 GreenDimond also mono takes less space
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22:01 GreenDimond it works
22:01 GreenDimond thankyou sofar
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22:30 kaeza stereo sound is basically two mono sounds coming from different places
22:31 kaeza that does not translate very well when you have a single source location
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22:34 Hijiri you could put each track in a different location
22:34 Hijiri channel
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22:40 kaeza but where do you put them?
22:41 kaeza for a "stereo" node, it makes sense. you just calculate where each speaker would be and play each track individually from there
22:42 kaeza but you still have one source location for each "sound"
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23:19 Fixer hometown spawn FPS R.I.P.
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23:38 garywhite What?
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